[PINeely]

I was reading an article this morning about how there has been an outbreak of measles stemming from Disneyland. The working hypothesis right now is that unvaccinated children caught the disease from either a traveler who had it or by visiting a place where it was not eradicated. Now children who are too young to have the MMR vaccine are catching the disease from these kids. Additionally there have been at least two cases where the individual was vaccinated, possibly indicating a mutation in the virus.

Should this be a come-to-jesus for the anti-vaxxers? Should the CDC and CPS work together to essentially force vaccinations?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSto...yland-28115021

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...110-story.html

[UncleWede]

No, just the opposite. IF vaccinated are getting it, what good is subjecting your kid to the trauma of the MMR shot, and the even anecdotal risk of negative reactions?

Even the flu vaccine isn't doing much this year, since they base the vaccine on their best guess of which flu viri will be around this year from last year's outbreaks.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

No, just the opposite. IF vaccinated are getting it, what good is subjecting your kid to the trauma of the MMR shot, and the even anecdotal risk of negative reactions?

Even the flu vaccine isn't doing much this year, since they base the vaccine on their best guess of which flu viri will be around this year from last year's outbreaks.

Huh? He said only two people who were vaccinated got it...compared to I don't know how many who were too young to be vaccinated. Now I can't be bothered to read the article, but it doesn't seem like 2 cases being the be all and end all on which to hang your hat against vaccinations?

I agree with the flu opinion - I rarely get the shot because its guesswork at best.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Huh? He said only two people who were vaccinated got it...compared to I don't know how many who were too young to be vaccinated. Now I can't be bothered to read the article, but it doesn't seem like 2 cases being the be all and end all on which to hang your hat against vaccinations?

I agree with the flu opinion - I rarely get the shot because its guesswork at best.

The flu is kind of different. If you're a healthy adult with no immune issues, you can still get the flu but you'll probably survive, especially once you go see the doctor and they give you the tamiflu stuff.

Young kids, elderly, and immunocompromised can't really take the risk. Even if the shot isn't a sure bet, it's better to be on the safe side. They can really suffer and possibly die from the flu.

Besides Jenny McCarthy, who has resources and can post actual scientific support for the argument against getting vaccinated?

And "trauma" from getting a shot? Really? Are we so soft that a split second of a pinch is too much for our kids to deal with? I don't know about you, but I have no recollection of the immunizations I received as a kid.

[UncleWede]

Were the people who got measles at DL exposed via needle stick? The vector isn't there. When they come up with a vaccine that doesn't have the potential side-effects, and is the way the immune system is naturally challenged by the targeted disease, I'll come around to the other side.

I have some recollection, not of the shot so much as the days of feeling less than normal, of my arm aching, why shouldn't I try to protect my children from any and all "needless" trauma?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I have some recollection, not of the shot so much as the days of feeling less than normal, of my arm aching, why shouldn't I try to protect my children from any and all "needless" trauma?

I highly doubt as a young child from birth to about 15 months old that you remember "days of feeling less than normal."

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

No, just the opposite. IF vaccinated are getting it, what good is subjecting your kid to the trauma of the MMR shot, and the even anecdotal risk of negative reactions?

Even the flu vaccine isn't doing much this year, since they base the vaccine on their best guess of which flu viri will be around this year from last year's outbreaks.

This is skipping over the problem though. Measles, whooping cough, etc were pretty much eradicated in the US years ago but now they're back because people are turning down the vaccine for their kids. If the virus reemerges in this population and then mutates to the point that our current vaccine won't work against it then we have serious, serious problems.

The flu vaccine is a craps shoot because the virus mutates so readily. If it were a slower mutation rate then it could probably be eradicated too.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

No, just the opposite. IF vaccinated are getting it, what good is subjecting your kid to the trauma of the MMR shot, and the even anecdotal risk of negative reactions?

Even the flu vaccine isn't doing much this year, since they base the vaccine on their best guess of which flu viri will be around this year from last year's outbreaks.

Vaccines aren't perfect. But they're better than no vaccine.

This years flu vaccine is a case in point. It's about 40% effective. Sounds pretty bad, right? Less than 50% effective.

That's millions of people not getting the flu, and thousands not dying of it. The tiny number of adverse reactions pales by comparison.

The other thing about children's vaccines is that they provide protection beyond the individual. Google "herd immunity" for details.

I understand that emotionally, parents find it hard to expose their children to vaccines which carry even a tiny risk. The thought that they might voluntarily take an action that harms their child, even if the risk is tiny, is just awful.

The difficulty is that inaction is even more likely to cause harm. Beyond any doubt. So far this season, 26 children have died from the flu. Google "children flu death" for details. If everyone was vaccinated, that number would be less. Not more.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

Vaccines aren't perfect. But they're better than no vaccine.

This years flu vaccine is a case in point. It's about 40% effective. Sounds pretty bad, right? Less than 50% effective.

That's millions of people not getting the flu, and thousands not dying of it. The tiny number of adverse reactions pales by comparison.

The other thing about children's vaccines is that they provide protection beyond the individual. Google "herd immunity" for details.

I understand that emotionally, parents find it hard to expose their children to vaccines which carry even a tiny risk. The thought that they might voluntarily take an action that harms their child, even if the risk is tiny, is just awful.

The difficulty is that inaction is even more likely to cause harm. Beyond any doubt. So far this season, 26 children have died from the flu. Google "children flu death" for details. If everyone was vaccinated, that number would be less. Not more.

+1

Said everything I wanted to say.

[UncleWede]

Herd immunity is exactly what I was depending on.

For the record, my son has SOME vaccines. MMR was included. I opted out of varicella. Reasoning being that the immunity lasts for ~10 years. So I get it for him at 5, then 15. Somewhere during his college days he needs another one. I'm not responsible for him. He gets it at that age, I don't get no grandbabies. So in that case, I took him to pox parties and he got it.

Also, as an infant, I didn't get him Hep. Better not be swapping spit/bodily fluids at that age. I have to go each year and sign a release for the school. If there is Hep going around school, I don't want my son there until they figure out the source anyways

I haven't vaccinated myself against shingles either.

My memory I was discussing above was the tetanus shot I had to take last year because I cut my finger on a server cage.

Maybe my son doesn't recall when he got croup about 18 months, but I sure as hell do remember having to hold him down so they could do a blood draw AFTER they had already diagnosed and treated him as CYA for the Dr. I swore then not to stand by when my heart/mind tell me to protect my son from unnecessary risk in the medical world.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I haven't vaccinated myself against shingles either.

Wow. Have you not had friends who got it? I have, and there was no way I was not going to do my best to avoid the experience. The risk of side effects, once again, is substantially smaller than the risk of shingles.

Similarly, I got flu one year. Awful. Haven't missed a flu shot since. You do what you can do.

[UncleWede]

For the record, I am in that high risk group as an insulin-dependent diabetic for over 35 years. About 7 years ago I got the flu vaccine. Less than 2 weeks later I was out for 3 days with flu-like symptoms, HARD out. Even ended up in the ER because I was puking so bad and couldn't get my blood sugars in a reasonable range. Maybe I had ebola and just didn't know it.

Since then, no vaccines. I've spent a few days home from work "sick" and in bed sleeping, but nothing like what happened after the vaccine.

3000mg C, herbal resistance (Echinacea, goldenseal, and yin chiao) and a wee dram of Scotch keep me going now.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

7 years ago I got the flu vaccine. Less than 2 weeks later I was out for 3 days with flu-like symptoms, HARD out.

modern flu shot takes 2 weeks to kick in. You could have just gotten the flu because you weren't protected yet.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

modern flu shot takes 2 weeks to kick in. You could have just gotten the flu because you weren't protected yet.

That's one possibility. Another is that he had a reaction to the shot.

Back to talking to Uncle Wede. That might be a good reason for you to avoid flu shots. It's a bad reason for you to avoid giving your children vaccinations. Just a matter of science over emotion, your possible reaction to a flu shot has very few implications for them.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

That's one possibility. Another is that he had a reaction to the shot.

Back to talking to Uncle Wede. That might be a good reason for you to avoid flu shots. It's a bad reason for you to avoid giving your children vaccinations. Just a matter of science over emotion, your possible reaction to a flu shot has very few implications for them.

Exactly.

The blind following of the "herbal" treatment method is even worse. Especially since most of these supplements are not regulated at ALL. Who knows what is really in that stuff...

I've seen a lot of ridiculous comments lately because of the recent outbreaks. There was an article (don't have the link) in TIME that a "faith healing" lady from Philly was actually locked up because she didn't treat her children and one died (not 100% sure on if just one died or more).

[gtron]

i heard there's a lot of people becoming anti-vaccine thinking it'll make their kid slow or it's just not worth putting their kid through the pain.

i think we haven't recently lived through a hardcore plague so it's easy to forget how these issues were eradicated.

measles. something that should be pretty much gone is now raring it's lovely head again. i can't help but feel like it's more the anti-vaccine group causing this. i could be wrong but if so, i hope they learn their lesson quickly.

[UncleWede]

I can TASTE the alcohol in the herbal, I know me some good snake-oil when I taste it!!! Same herd immunity for my brain/liver cells.

I have had some positive experience with homeopathic remedies. I realize they are expressly using the power of the mind and the body's own truly MIRACULOUS ability to heal.

I'm an advocate for exposure, to strengthen the body's immune response. Everybody needs to play in the dirt, wipe shit off their hands on the grass, and spend some time in the ocean.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Templar

Exactly.

The blind following of the "herbal" treatment method is even worse. Especially since most of these supplements are not regulated at ALL. Who knows what is really in that stuff...

I've seen a lot of ridiculous comments lately because of the recent outbreaks. There was an article (don't have the link) in TIME that a "faith healing" lady from Philly was actually locked up because she didn't treat her children and one died (not 100% sure on if just one died or more).

I heard about her. It was her second kid to die because she didn't take them to doctors.

I used to work with a lady who is like that. Vegetarian, organic, anti-vaccine, homeopathic etc and she REFUSES to take her son to a doctor even though he has frequent, violent seizures because it's "part of his natural development." That kid's probably gonna die before he turns 15 because his parents don't trust science. That's the bottom line for many of these alternative remedies I think. I understand that the pharm industry is under some scrutiny right now and that pharmacology is a pretty mysterious thing to a lot of people but the level of mistrust is such now that we are regressing scientifically.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I can TASTE the alcohol in the herbal, I know me some good snake-oil when I taste it!!! Same herd immunity for my brain/liver cells.

I have had some positive experience with homeopathic remedies. I realize they are expressly using the power of the mind and the body's own truly MIRACULOUS ability to heal.

I'm an advocate for exposure, to strengthen the body's immune response. Everybody needs to play in the dirt, wipe shit off their hands on the grass, and spend some time in the ocean.

I agree with exposure. Let your kids eat dirt, play outside and get cuts and scrapes. That's how we build our immune system in the first place. I just feel like it is sensible to go the step further and vaccinate against things that are more serious than a little fever or an infected cut.

I'm also not shitting on homeopathic remedies because a lot of them are scientifically derived and DO work due to natural presence of helpful drugs in them. I'm just dubious of the proverbial capsule full of brown miracle stuff that promises to cure everything from a cold to mental illness.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by PINeely

I heard about her. It was her second kid to die because she didn't take them to doctors.

I used to work with a lady who is like that. Vegetarian, organic, anti-vaccine, homeopathic etc and she REFUSES to take her son to a doctor even though he has frequent, violent seizures because it's "part of his natural development." That kid's probably gonna die before he turns 15 because his parents don't trust science. That's the bottom line for many of these alternative remedies I think. I understand that the pharm industry is under some scrutiny right now and that pharmacology is a pretty mysterious thing to a lot of people but the level of mistrust is such now that we are regressing scientifically.

The funny thing is that big pharm doesn't actually make THAT much money off of vaccines. They make far more off of the other pills they make for every other lifestyle disease that people have.

Here's a good blog. And guess what? It's supported by actual SCIENCE. Not tin-foil hat conspiracies.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and...are-being-lied

And as far as "counting on" herd immunity:

They say that if other people’s children are vaccinated, there’s no need for their children to get vaccinated.

This is one of the most despicable arguments I’ve ever heard. First of all, vaccines aren’t always 100% effective, so it is possible for a vaccinated child to still become infected if exposed to a disease. Worse, there are some people who can’t receive vaccinations, because they are immune deficient, or because they are allergic to some component. Those people depend upon herd immunity to protect them. People who choose not to vaccinate their children against infectious diseases are putting not only their own children at risk, but also other people’s children.

And the best quote in the whole article:

The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.

[UncleWede]

The homeopathics I am speaking of contain none of the original "substance" they were made from. It's simply milk-sugar pills infused with the "essence" of the original material. I've even had positive "results" from paper homeopathic remedies, where I wrote the name and strength of the remedy on a piece of paper then kept it in my breast pocket for a few hours. Arnica 30c heals a bruise days faster than just leaving it alone.

Did that piece of paper directly fix it? Hell no! But did having it in my pocket to subconsciously remind me to send healing activity to the site make it better a few days earlier, Yes Sir!

[MiddleAgedAl]

Herd Immunity, which a valid scientific concept, is more fragile than most people realize, so the tipping point is not as far away as they think.

A buncha science nerds at dodgy place called Harvard actually think that social networking is actually accelerating the decline in participation rates, as people rely on anecdotal information from well-meaning, but ill-informed people in their social circles, who can now propagate their ignorance faster than was possible back in the days of rotary phones. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...accine-vacuum/

(yes, for those who have not yet figured it out on your own by looking at the continuously changing, ambiguous thing that is their "privacy policy", facebook is an instrument of evil)

The Herd Immunity threshold percentage for many serious diseases is in the high-80s, not the 50's or 60's. Once you remove those who medically cannot get immunized, then it only takes a small percentage of eligible people to decline before you cross the boundary. A mere 14% decline in vaccination rates can result in a four-fold increase in the spread of a disease.

Having said that, of course I have not subjected myself to any immunizations myself, as the voices coming from my toaster have warned me not to.