[HuskyBMW]

Interesting story on MSN.com today. With as good of reviews that are out there for the ATS and CTS, they still aren't selling.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compa...FLy?li=BBnb7Kz

[AIRPOWER]

I can see why, Cadillac seems to carry quite a few pimp connotations with it.

[ClothSeats]

I like some aspects of the ATS, but CUE and the gauges kill it for me. And I'd recommend the CTS twin turbo to my father, but I already know he would hate the stupid buttonless interface.

[nicknaz]

My take is that buyers of the mainstream luxury sedans want space and luxury and not performance

Another great example of that is the G37S. That should have done really well compared to the C250 and 328 of the world but apparently there were people scared and intimidated of it, and they had to make the G25

My $0.02 is that BMW was right to soften up the F30

As for the ATS-V, nice car, but the reality for me personally is that I have wanted an "M3" for so many years that when I got around to being able to get one, any competitors needed to be order of magnitude better for me to even consider them

[Schwarz]

I've seen so many people leave Cadillac in recent years. Even my father who had a CTS-V actually hated the car and swapped it for an M6 a couple months ago...

[trey100]

I've owned a few G37s and they always seem better on paper but my current 335 F30 is a way better car. I think it's the same with the Caddy. They supposedly hit the target with the chassis but it still doesn't look right to me. Super aggressive body panels and then tiny 18" wheels. Horrible Nav and gauges. To me, the M cars even though aggressive looking, remain stealth. You can pass it off as a luxury car, sports car, commuter car, etc. The caddy to me is overdone and looks cheesy.

[dkhm3]

I blame the Caddy marketing and GM team.

1. they should make caddy's a brand you aspire to own- the marketing for the chevy malibu is far better than the marketing for the ats or the cts. they should focus on core things that make the car better than its competitors- play up the accolades.

2. they need to stop cannibalizing products from the lower end models to make caddys- i.e. the slade is a yukon/suburban, the ats shares platforms with the camaro, etc. lincoln is another example of ford's failure to get their brand prestige off the ground.

3. they need get their dealers upgraded, most caddy dealers are pretty down market looking, people need to be wowed by the buying experience and the service experience.

no core vision, even good cars and reviews are not going to be enough.

[David70]

Originally Posted by HuskyBMW

Interesting story on MSN.com today. With as good of reviews that are out there for the ATS and CTS, they still aren't selling.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compa...FLy?li=BBnb7Kz

From a BMW and Cadillac owner so I find it interesting.

1st quarter BMW sales dropped a good amount so not sure if this is a car problem or that people don't want cars. When you look at the cars for the link below it doesn't look good. With the 3 series dropping 30% and the 4 series 14% in the 1st quarter would we then say it is a product problem?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300244859.html

BMW Group Sales
In total, the BMW Group in the U.S. (BMW and MINI combined) reported March sales of 34,795 vehicles, a decrease of 13.3 percent from the 40,139 vehicles sold in the same month a year ago. Year-to-date, BMW Group sales are down 10.8 percent on sales of 81,452 in the first three months of 2016 compared to 91,269 in the same period in 2015.

Add 3 series and 4 series together for 2015 and compare them to 2014 and also bleak - http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

[jpdchicago]

Typical Cadillac customers could not care less about 400HP+
Performance cars customers would not be caught dead in a Cadillac. I know I would not.
Interior is still not up to par with BMW and Audi

[trey100]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I blame the Caddy marketing and GM team.

1. they should make caddy's a brand you aspire to own- the marketing for the chevy malibu is far better than the marketing for the ats or the cts. they should focus on core things that make the car better than its competitors- play up the accolades.

2. they need to stop cannibalizing products from the lower end models to make caddys- i.e. the slade is a yukon/suburban, the ats shares platforms with the camaro, etc. lincoln is another example of ford's failure to get their brand prestige off the ground.

3. they need get their dealers upgraded, most caddy dealers are pretty down market looking, people need to be wowed by the buying experience and the service experience.

no core vision, even good cars and reviews are not going to be enough.

Yes, Yes, and Yes. The Caddy dealership near me sells Chevy side by side. What a stupid thing to do.

[trey100]

Originally Posted by David70

From a BMW and Cadillac owner so I find it interesting.

1st quarter BMW sales dropped a good amount so not sure if this is a car problem or that people don't want cars. When you look at the cars for the link below it doesn't look good. With the 3 series dropping 30% and the 4 series 14% in the 1st quarter would we then say it is a product problem?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300244859.html

Add 3 series and 4 series together for 2015 and compare them to 2014 and also bleak - http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

I'll disagree with this. The 3/4 series sold so many cars that it is natural to see some dips. They still sell so many. The article shows that the average ATS stays unsold for 140+ days. If that is true, that is a car that is not in demand at all.

It looks like the 3/4 is selling at something like 10x the ATS.

[DocWeatherington]

I agree hard to buy a Caddy when it sits in the same showroom with an Cobalt.

Also Caddy has an issue with design, there products are good but have some way to go with design.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by David70

From a BMW and Cadillac owner so I find it interesting.

1st quarter BMW sales dropped a good amount so not sure if this is a car problem or that people don't want cars. When you look at the cars for the link below it doesn't look good. With the 3 series dropping 30% and the 4 series 14% in the 1st quarter would we then say it is a product problem?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300244859.html



Add 3 series and 4 series together for 2015 and compare them to 2014 and also bleak - http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

The main difference is that when you compare the CTS/ATS over the years that have been out on the market and compare them to their main competitors:

CTS
5 series
A6
GS
E CLASS
etc

ATS
c class
3 series
a4
etc

You will find that comparing sales per month the cadillac product is outsold, the sales trajectory is relatively flat, with exception of the Slade.

2016 is going to be a tougher year for the marquee brands. the stock market, real estate markets have peaked.

3/4 series have been out in the market for over 4 years now and it is going to drop off a bit. still, i think i did the math, the 3/4 series outsell the ats 9 to 1 this year.

[gtron]

I went to two different Cadillac dealerships to look at the ATS-V and CTS-V. I believe they made those cars to appeal to people like us so they want change.

I would think that both of those cars are an indication of change and that they're trying. The problem is - NOBODY TOLD THE DEALERSHIPS.

When I walked in I was looked at like "why aren't you 100 years old? not serious; please leave". I asked about the ATS-V at one place and this guy wouldn't even get out of his chair to shake my hand. Then he went on to say how expensive it is as to say I couldn't afford it so I'm not worth getting out of his chair for. For the record, I was not dressed down. For example, I happen to be wearing an $8,000 watch at this time.

I went to another dealer and again, I was looked at like I didn't belong there. I was showed the outside of the car but they wouldn't even start it up.

It was one of the craziest experiences I've had at a dealership let alone two. They felt dated and out of touch with their new potential customer base.

I really wanted a manual sedan too. I thought it would have been cool to sport an american car in my area. Like a trendsetter or something. Yea... no, didn't get past the dated sales people.

I'm actually shaking my head with disbelief as I type this because thinking back on it, I feel bad for the people that are trying to make it "cool" but they're failing due to someone forgetting to tell the front lines.

The whole thing was embarrassing and uncomfortable.

[dkhm3]

I think Cadillac needs to get Justin Bieber in an ad blitz, with him and his tats rolling down Santa Monica Blvd in a White Slade.

They need to out douchebag bmw.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by gtron

I went to two different Cadillac dealerships to look at the ATS-V and CTS-V. I believe they made those cars to appeal to people like us so they want change.

I would think that both of those cars are an indication of change and that they're trying. The problem is - NOBODY TOLD THE DEALERSHIPS.

When I walked in I was looked at like "why aren't you 100 years old? not serious; please leave". I asked about the ATS-V at one place and this guy wouldn't even get out of his chair to shake my hand. Then he went on to say how expensive it is as to say I couldn't afford it so I'm not worth getting out of his chair for. For the record, I was not dressed down. For example, I happen to be wearing an $8,000 watch at this time.

I went to another dealer and again, I was looked at like I didn't belong there. I was showed the outside of the car but they wouldn't even start it up.

It was one of the craziest experiences I've had at a dealership let alone two. They felt dated and out of touch with their new potential customer base.

I really wanted a manual sedan too. I thought it would have been cool to sport an american car in my area. Like a trendsetter or something. Yea... no, didn't get past the dated sales people.

I'm actually shaking my head with disbelief as I type this because thinking back on it, I feel bad for the people that are trying to make it "cool" but they're failing due to someone forgetting to tell the front lines.

The whole thing was embarrassing and uncomfortable.

This is what you need to wear for some wow factor in a Caddy Dealership. 80's chic.

[David70]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

The main difference is that when you compare the CTS/ATS over the years that have been out on the market and compare them to their main competitors:

CTS
5 series
A6
GS
E CLASS
etc

ATS
c class
3 series
a4
etc

You will find that comparing sales per month the cadillac product is outsold, the sales trajectory is relatively flat, with exception of the Slade.

2016 is going to be a tougher year for the marquee brands. the stock market, real estate markets have peaked.

3/4 series have been out in the market for over 4 years now and it is going to drop off a bit. still, i think i did the math, the 3/4 series outsell the ats 9 to 1 this year.

And the SRX did exceptionally well in it's last year of production, how does this happen, maybe because SUV/CUV's are all selling really well for everyone?

Yes the 3/4 outsold the ATS many times over, also the Camry is the #1 selling car overall and I wouldn't buy one if looking in it's class either.

Looks like the 3/4 series dropped by 25% from 2014-2015 and the ATS dropped by 10%. So the ATS is hated but the 3/4 have a dip because everyone already purchased one and it hit the market 4 years ago, not 3?

Also, I bought a used 2013 CPO ATS, and very happy with what I paid for the car, how it is to drive (handling universally reviewed as best in class), what it came with (forged, staggered wheels, Magnetic ride, LSD) when a comparable 3 series price was far greater. Can you get an LSD or forged wheels on a 3 series and what does it cost? If I drive it to 120k miles (my plan) the odds the overall cost benefit will grow in Cadillac's favor are huge. How many people get rid of their BMW because the warranty is going to expire?

Yes if you care about the badge, it's image as an old persons car, or what other people think I wouldn't recommend looking at one. As a BMW and Cadillac owner I prefer the "why did you buy an old person's car" over the "ah a BMW douche". .

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by David70

And the SRX did exceptionally well in it's last year of production, how does this happen, maybe because SUV/CUV's are all selling really well for everyone?

Yes the 3/4 outsold the ATS many times over, also the Camry is the #1 selling car overall and I wouldn't buy one if looking in it's class either.

Looks like the 3/4 series dropped by 25% from 2014-2015 and the ATS dropped by 10%. So the ATS is hated but the 3/4 have a dip because everyone already purchased one and it hit the market 4 years ago, not 3?

Also, I bought a used 2013 CPO ATS, and very happy with what I paid for the car, how it is to drive (handling universally reviewed as best in class), what it came with (forged, staggered wheels, Magnetic ride, LSD) when a comparable 3 series price was far greater. Can you get an LSD or forged wheels on a 3 series and what does it cost? If I drive it to 120k miles (my plan) the odds the overall cost benefit will grow in Cadillac's favor are huge. How many people get rid of their BMW because the warranty is going to expire?

Yes if you care about the badge, it's image as an old persons car, or what other people think I wouldn't recommend looking at one. As a BMW and Cadillac owner I prefer the "why did you buy an old person's car" over the "ah a BMW douche". .

You do realize that my posts were jokes in response to other posts? I neither believe that bmw drivers are douchebags or that cadillac drivers are old people cars.

Sales figures show that the brand sells less cars than its competitors, Cadillac is not setting records in really any category compared to its competitors.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/

ATS sells about 1500-1800 a month. so any slight variation in sales affects the % a lot more than 12,000-15,000 a month of a 3/4 series. I hope you understand that when you compare 2 extreme numbers like that in % terms it is a silly discussion.

You should love your ATS, it is a fine car. The brand is not selling compared to the competition. That is a fact.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by gtron

I went to two different Cadillac dealerships to look at the ATS-V and CTS-V. I believe they made those cars to appeal to people like us so they want change.

I would think that both of those cars are an indication of change and that they're trying. The problem is - NOBODY TOLD THE DEALERSHIPS.

When I walked in I was looked at like "why aren't you 100 years old? not serious; please leave". I asked about the ATS-V at one place and this guy wouldn't even get out of his chair to shake my hand. Then he went on to say how expensive it is as to say I couldn't afford it so I'm not worth getting out of his chair for. For the record, I was not dressed down. For example, I happen to be wearing an $8,000 watch at this time.

I went to another dealer and again, I was looked at like I didn't belong there. I was showed the outside of the car but they wouldn't even start it up.

It was one of the craziest experiences I've had at a dealership let alone two. They felt dated and out of touch with their new potential customer base.

I really wanted a manual sedan too. I thought it would have been cool to sport an american car in my area. Like a trendsetter or something. Yea... no, didn't get past the dated sales people.

I'm actually shaking my head with disbelief as I type this because thinking back on it, I feel bad for the people that are trying to make it "cool" but they're failing due to someone forgetting to tell the front lines.

The whole thing was embarrassing and uncomfortable.

This is a direct result of the dealership issue mentioned before. A previous poster is right: Caddys should not be sold next to Cobalts ... and I'll go one further: A Caddy salesman should not be selling Cobalts, and vice versa.

There's a reason BMW keeps MINI dealerships separate from BMW dealerships, even though they are frequently next door to each other. Different products for different niches and aspirations demand a different experience -- especially in this day and age where that experience, not necessarily the product, makes the sale.

Toyota understood this way back in the 1990s when it launched Lexus -- better than Nissan/Infinity and Honda/Acura because Toyota frequently required that new Lexus dealerships be far enough away from Toyota dealerships so as to prevent comparison. Toyota also understood that old real estate adage: location, location, location. When it could, it stuck Lexus dealers near or next to its competition. Part of the reason Infinity and Acura didn't do as well initially is that they did not do this.

That philosophy is part and parcel of my belief that Hyundai will not be successful with a separate Genesis brand unless it opens separate Genesis dealerships operating completely independent of Hyundai. An aspirational marque needs an aspirational place to go with it.

A good BMW salesman would have noticed that watch. That's all I've really got to say, and that sums up the issue at this point better than any other point I can think of.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is a direct result of the dealership issue mentioned before. A previous poster is right: Caddys should not be sold next to Cobalts ... and I'll go one further: A Caddy salesman should not be selling Cobalts, and vice versa.

There's a reason BMW keeps MINI dealerships separate from BMW dealerships, even though they are frequently next door to each other. Different products for different niches and aspirations demand a different experience -- especially in this day and age where that experience, not necessarily the product, makes the sale.

Toyota understood this way back in the 1990s when it launched Lexus -- better than Nissan/Infinity and Honda/Acura because Toyota frequently required that new Lexus dealerships be far enough away from Toyota dealerships so as to prevent comparison. Toyota also understood that old real estate adage: location, location, location. When it could, it stuck Lexus dealers near or next to its competition. Part of the reason Infinity and Acura didn't do as well initially is that they did not do this.

That philosophy is part and parcel of my belief that Hyundai will not be successful with a separate Genesis brand unless it opens separate Genesis dealerships operating completely independent of Hyundai. An aspirational marque needs an aspirational place to go with it.

A good BMW salesman would have noticed that watch. That's all I've really got to say, and that sums up the issue at this point better than any other point I can think of.

I agree with you all points.

except i've been dicked before at bmw dealerships too. car salesmen can be equally bad across the brands

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I agree with you all points.

except i've been dicked before at bmw dealerships too. car salesmen can be equally bad across the brands

True dat.

[Efthreeoh]

So how many BMW/Mini dealerships are there? BMW of Sterling (VA) sold BMWs along side Minis for years. They've now since moved the BMW dealership across the street and sell Rolls Royce with Mini. It's a stupid argument.

I'd bet half the posters here have never even driven an ATS. It blows away the F30. But then there's always the infamous the Caddy's (fit any American car here) interior sucks. It doesn't actually. The CUE once you get used to it, works great. Go on any of the Cadillac Forums and that will be the consensus you'll fund. The CUE system "sucks" because a bunch of journalists spend a few hours with it and don't learn it completely.