[mikado463]

As EV's gain momentum the sales model is changing.....

https://www.torquenews.com/15524/for...s-dealer-level

[BMWCCA1]

Talk, talk, talk. Nothing there is new, or even a change. More charging stations? Duhh.
Training sales people? At a Ford store? You're kidding, right? The author says he's worked at dealerships "owned" by all Big Three manufacturers. Is he sure they were owned by the manufacturer? That generally happens only in an area where a privately owned store can't support itself but the manufacturer wants a presence in that location so they just do it themselves. Not really the normal situation. A real change would be the manufacturers doing away with dealerships altogether. Porsche tried to do this several decades ago under Schultz and gave up on the idea. Tesla has accomplished this with a clean-sheet approach but they are . . . special.

[chassis]

Ford is talking about separating their EV and ICE businesses. If that happens I could see Ford EV dealers and Ford ICE dealers. It wouldn't change Ford's model but it might give them a chance to jettison some unsavory dealers.

Startups like Tesla and Rivian have options and went for fastest to market, which means ordering a car from your mobile device. Plus they avoid the slime and shadiness that exists in the legacy dealer model.

[TheWatchGuy]

It wont matter until dealers can do everything online.

in todays world where i can sign for nearly everything online without stepping foot in to a building, there is no reason i have to physically go in to the dealer to sign paperwork. My last few cars ive bought at least out of area and most out of state, and each one i had to physically go in to the dealership to sign paperwork and it takes way longer than it should. Even recently ordering an F150, i had to physically go in to the dealership (1.5hr away) just so they could print out the build sheet i sent them and sign it. So they could then scan it in and send to ford.

Ford splitting ICE and EV wont fix the dealer experience until they get the online sales portion of it figured out.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

hey hey STOP IT YOU ARE DESTORYING AMERICAN JOBS.

ive never been much for waiters. rather order off a kiosk and go get my food from the kitchen

[LOW4LYF]

Just let the manufacturer selling directly to the customer please.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by chassis

Ford is talking about separating their EV and ICE businesses. If that happens I could see Ford EV dealers and Ford ICE dealers. It wouldn't change Ford's model but it might give them a chance to jettison some unsavory dealers.

Startups like Tesla and Rivian have options and went for fastest to market, which means ordering a car from your mobile device. Plus they avoid the slime and shadiness that exists in the legacy dealer model.

Great. So now there will be douche nozzle salesman at EV and ICE. Just what we need. More fucking car salesman 🤮🤮

[Glen e]

Nothing will ever change until the dealer franchise system is replaced by the dealer direct to the factory system like Tesla. And that will require many many state statutes to change…

[BMWCCA1]

Great. Now all the schlemiels who order cars from me and wriggle out of the deal once the car is produced won't have a sympathetic ear to bend when they want their deposit back. All those dicks who place orders all over the place and just expect to walk away from all but one will be contractually obligated to complete the sale on each car they order and spec to their individual taste. I guaranty Ford won't be as understanding as the local dealership you screwed.

Over 40-years selling BMW, Porsche, Audi—with enough customers I respect too much to give a flying f*uck about the losers who have wasted my time over the decades. Just had an outstanding delivery to a customer with his new M5CS who couldn't have been happier even though he's waited about a year to get his car. Some times people make it all worthwhile—and other times people make me regret I have yet to retire. It's balancing the bullshit with the grateful customers I've been able to help. And yet people like some in this thread continue to bash sales people. Behind your backs we know that many "Buyers are Liars!"

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Great. Now all the schlemiels who order cars from me and wriggle out of the deal once the car is produced won't have a sympathetic ear to bend when they want their deposit back. All those dicks who place orders all over the place and just expect to walk away from all but one will be contractually obligated to complete the sale on each car they order and spec to their individual taste. I guaranty Ford won't be as understanding as the local dealership you screwed.

Over 40-years selling BMW, Porsche, Audi—with enough customers I respect too much to give a flying f*uck about the losers who have wasted my time over the decades. Just had an outstanding delivery to a customer with his new M5CS who couldn't have been happier even though he's waited about a year to get his car. Some times people make it all worthwhile—and other times people make me regret I have yet to retire. It's balancing the bullshit with the grateful customers I've been able to help. And yet people like some in this thread continue to bash sales people. Behind your backs we know that many "Buyers are Liars!"

Your feelings must be hurt really bad...

https://www.vox.com/2014/10/26/69773...ar-hassle-free

Data don't lie, most people hate dealing with a dealership...ask yourself why?

[ZL9M2]

I can't think of a time in the last 30 years of buying cars that the dealership associate has been any help. Usually I know more about the car that I want to buy than they do. So for me this is a wasted step in the process. Let me go online and buy the exact vehicle I want. If a customer wants to drive different models, see different color choices in person, schmooze with their "client associate" that is fine. They can hire an advisor and pay them for this service. I don't care to.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

Your feelings must be hurt really bad...

https://www.vox.com/2014/10/26/69773...ar-hassle-free

Data don't lie, most people hate dealing with a dealership...ask yourself why?

I don't need to ask myself why. As reflected here, we should ask all dealerships why. Is it inherent in how dealers hire? Is it just a general turning of American purchasing to the Wal-Mart-ing of America where all we want is low price and have learned not to expect any service? Why is it that retaining employees is one of the biggest challenges for dealerships these days?

Ask my three-generations of customers who call me with any question from what services do they really need, to inability to reach Service, to what should they look at to replace a current vehicle with a newer one. I'm not saying every sales advisor is a good one. I'm just saying you all are painting with too broad a brush. Are you expecting a dealership to do your warranty work when they didn't sell you the car? Or sell anyone a car? Good luck finding a nearby service facility for your in-warranty work if they can't make a dime selling new vehicles. And don't throw the Tesla model at us. I lost track of how many Teslas we've taken in trade when owners lost confidence in the vehicle and the corporate response to their issues. The latest being a Plaid with under 400-miles on it.

The fact that you know more than your sales advisor perhaps says more about the dealership you visit than your knowledge level. Maybe they don't know what an E21 or an M50TU are. Maybe you don't, either. Or maybe we just remain unimpressed with $20k watches on the wrists of entitled shoppers. I know a Patek Phillipe from a Breitling but, frankly, I really don't give a shit. I long to return to the day when the BMW dealership owner would take a 14-year-old kid for a ride in his grey-market import 2002ti, and let me back in the shop to see cars being worked on.

Yeah, those days are gone, but riding my bicycle ten-miles just to hang-out is what started me on my BMW purchasing 55-years ago. That is certainly not what dealerships are all about today. Nor are they the Frank Lloyd Wright Manhattan showrooms that used to draw us in. But that's as much a fault of the product offerings as the changing times. BMW just isn't BMW anymore. Perhaps it is time for them to completely enter the abyss and go completely on-line. Customers today will probably deserve what they get.

Bury me in my 1600 Cabriolet or my 128i Msport 6-speed. I have no need for your vision of purchasing or BMW's soulless new cars. Enjoy your life. May all your wishes come true.

[nerdogray]

You are definitely the exception rather than the rule. Especially now, where demand has outpaced supply, all dealers have gotten incredibly snobbish. I was trying to just get another Honda beater and just cannot find a dealer (out of 8 so far) that doesn't have an attitude that they are doing me a favor even talking to me. Then they treat you like an idiot through the whole process, forcing DAO's on you with every explanation imaginable... and then trying to pad the loans at the end. And this is with me already being fine with $5k over MSRP. Every step of the process now is frought with deception and ego. I can't wait to see Sonic and Hendrick dealers get their due. Those two especially have always been awful, but now they are insufferable.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

I don't need to ask myself why. As reflected here, we should ask all dealerships why. Is it inherent in how dealers hire? Is it just a general turning of American purchasing to the Wal-Mart-ing of America where all we want is low price and have learned not to expect any service? Why is it that retaining employees is one of the biggest challenges for dealerships these days?

Ask my three-generations of customers who call me with any question from what services do they really need, to inability to reach Service, to what should they look at to replace a current vehicle with a newer one. I'm not saying every sales advisor is a good one. I'm just saying you all are painting with too broad a brush. Are you expecting a dealership to do your warranty work when they didn't sell you the car? Or sell anyone a car? Good luck finding a nearby service facility for your in-warranty work if they can't make a dime selling new vehicles. And don't throw the Tesla model at us. I lost track of how many Teslas we've taken in trade when owners lost confidence in the vehicle and the corporate response to their issues. The latest being a Plaid with under 400-miles on it.

The fact that you know more than your sales advisor perhaps says more about the dealership you visit than your knowledge level. Maybe they don't know what an E21 or an M50TU are. Maybe you don't, either. Or maybe we just remain unimpressed with $20k watches on the wrists of entitled shoppers. I know a Patek Phillipe from a Breitling but, frankly, I really don't give a shit. I long to return to the day when the BMW dealership owner would take a 14-year-old kid for a ride in his grey-market import 2002ti, and let me back in the shop to see cars being worked on.

Yeah, those days are gone, but riding my bicycle ten-miles just to hang-out is what started me on my BMW purchasing 55-years ago. That is certainly not what dealerships are all about today. Nor are they the Frank Lloyd Wright Manhattan showrooms that used to draw us in. But that's as much a fault of the product offerings as the changing times. BMW just isn't BMW anymore. Perhaps it is time for them to completely enter the abyss and go completely on-line. Customers today will probably deserve what they get.

Bury me in my 1600 Cabriolet or my 128i Msport 6-speed. I have no need for your vision of purchasing or BMW's soulless new cars. Enjoy your life. May all your wishes come true.

I respect your hard work, but frankly your quality of work is a dying breed. I'd like to be buried in my '68 1600 as well, and I wear my old Timex Ironman most days; so don't generalize your consumer either. If the dude with the Breitling wants to come in and schmooze with a salesperson and have his ass kissed as he orders a car he knows nothing about that's fine.... that's not something I need though. And I think we now have the tools to streamline the process. All you need is a "BUY" button after you finish the online configuration.

[RM7]

Yeah, no one wants to deal with dealerships. The business model is outdated and screwed up. It needs to go away.

[chassis]

I have personally met, face to face, only one car salesperson who I trusted after a 3 minute discussion. Only that one salesman (he is a man) had equal or greater product knowledge than me.

The salesperson skill described above is, in practical terms, non-existent. I have decades of experience walking into showrooms and talking with the people found therein. It’s a low level of skill most of those people have.

[BMWCCA1]

Okay, tell me how this scenario would have worked out with online-only purchases:
Couple wandered over from Service where their '21 330i was having its first oil change. He's pushing her in a wheelchair. I go out to talk with them. He's considering an X5. I open two used ones for them to check out, as we have no new ones. She wants to get in the driver's seat but she's had MS for 50-years. She still wants to be able to do it by herself. I let them work it out and she finally gives up. I suggest that an X3 would be a bit lower and the way they do the rocker panels as part of the door make it much easier for many people to get into. We don't have any of those either but I get the keys to a 2020 and bring it up for her. She finds it very easy to get into by herself and takes it for a drive with her husband in the passenger seat. He's still concerned it's too small so we get her other wheelchair our of their car and put both in the back of the X3. They fit easily. Now he decides not to trade his Nissan truck on an X5 and instead to trade her 330i on an X3 she can get in more easily with more room for her chairs.

I spent over three-hours with them today. Never met them before. We appraised their trade and worked out a price on an X3 built to their specs. They wanted Jet Black like their 330i but I suggested they should pay a bit extra for Black Sapphire because it just doesn't show every imperfection like Jet Black does. I know. I've had both and still have an E39 530i Sport/Premium MT in Jet Black. Quite a chore to keep that perfect.

They talked about what they needed and what they had on their current car and I configured an X3 to make sure they weren't missing anything they already had. When I came to Remote Start they said they often wished they'd had it on their current car, but I'd pulled the MSRP report on that one and told them they already had it. They had no idea. They were concerned the X3 would be far more expensive than the rather spartan 330i they had but by asking the right questions, a car to their spec came in just a couple of hundred over $50k, and they ordered one, knowing full well they might not see it until May or June.

Later that day we got an extra allocation of a SC-built X3 for April instead of the South African-built X3s we'd gotten allocated last month. I called them and asked if they'd mind getting their new car a month-or-so earlier and told them I could put it into a production slot today. They couldn't have been more pleased and told me how much they appreciated my taking the time to make the whole process so easy with never any pressure to make a purchase.

The only glitch was when they told me they had heard on Sean Hannity that Putin's negotiations to end the Ukraine invasion included a demand that the USA give Alaska back to Russia, and that "Biden was weak enough to probably agree to it." It's not their fault that they watch Fox news. I still treated them with respect. My Mother had the same affliction until I got her to watch her favorite niece on CNN years ago and caused a stir in my family when she voted in a Presidential election for a black Democrat.

So, had the couple not had access to a dealership, they'd have likely done the mail-order X5 and the wife would still be trying to haul her weak and fragile body into its driver's seat. Instead we all missed lunch but solved their problem without giving up his truck, or spending a ton of money.

. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Okay, tell me how this scenario would have worked out with online-only purchases:
Couple wandered over from Service where their '21 330i was having its first oil change. He's pushing her in a wheelchair. I go out to talk with them. He's considering an X5. I open two used ones for them to check out, as we have no new ones. She wants to get in the driver's seat but she's had MS for 50-years. She still wants to be able to do it by herself. I let them work it out and she finally gives up. I suggest that an X3 would be a bit lower and the way they do the rocker panels as part of the door make it much easier for many people to get into. We don't have any of those either but I get the keys to a 2020 and bring it up for her. She finds it very easy to get into by herself and takes it for a drive with her husband in the passenger seat. He's still concerned it's too small so we get her other wheelchair our of their car and put both in the back of the X3. They fit easily. Now he decides not to trade his Nissan truck on an X5 and instead to trade her 330i on an X3 she can get in more easily with more room for her chairs.

I spent over three-hours with them today. Never met them before. We appraised their trade and worked out a price on an X3 built to their specs. They wanted Jet Black like their 330i but I suggested they should pay a bit extra for Black Sapphire because it just doesn't show every imperfection like Jet Black does. I know. I've had both and still have an E39 530i Sport/Premium MT in Jet Black. Quite a chore to keep that perfect.

They talked about what they needed and what they had on their current car and I configured an X3 to make sure they weren't missing anything they already had. When I came to Remote Start they said they often wished they'd had it on their current car, but I'd pulled the MSRP report on that one and told them they already had it. They had no idea. They were concerned the X3 would be far more expensive than the rather spartan 330i they had but by asking the right questions, a car to their spec came in just a couple of hundred over $50k, and they ordered one, knowing full well they might not see it until May or June.

Later that day we got an extra allocation of a SC-built X3 for April instead of the South African-built X3s we'd gotten allocated last month. I called them and asked if they'd mind getting their new car a month-or-so earlier and told them I could put it into a production slot today. They couldn't have been more pleased and told me how much they appreciated my taking the time to make the whole process so easy with never any pressure to make a purchase.

The only glitch was when they told me they had heard on Sean Hannity that Putin's negotiations to end the Ukraine invasion included a demand that the USA give Alaska back to Russia, and that "Biden was weak enough to probably agree to it." It's not their fault that they watch Fox news. I still treated them with respect. My Mother had the same affliction until I got her to watch her favorite niece on CNN years ago and caused a stir in my family when she voted in a Presidential election for a black Democrat.

So, had the couple not had access to a dealership, they'd have likely done the mail-order X5 and the wife would still be trying to haul her weak and fragile body into its driver's seat. Instead we all missed lunch but solved their problem without giving up his truck, or spending a ton of money.

. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

Nobody is hating sales advisors, don't take it personal. People just think the dealership itself is dated and useless. Buying a car from a dealership is stress and painful.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Okay, tell me how this scenario would have worked out with online-only purchases:
Couple wandered over from Service where their '21 330i was having its first oil change. He's pushing her in a wheelchair. I go out to talk with them. He's considering an X5. I open two used ones for them to check out, as we have no new ones. She wants to get in the driver's seat but she's had MS for 50-years. She still wants to be able to do it by herself. I let them work it out and she finally gives up. I suggest that an X3 would be a bit lower and the way they do the rocker panels as part of the door make it much easier for many people to get into. We don't have any of those either but I get the keys to a 2020 and bring it up for her. She finds it very easy to get into by herself and takes it for a drive with her husband in the passenger seat. He's still concerned it's too small so we get her other wheelchair our of their car and put both in the back of the X3. They fit easily. Now he decides not to trade his Nissan truck on an X5 and instead to trade her 330i on an X3 she can get in more easily with more room for her chairs.

I spent over three-hours with them today. Never met them before. We appraised their trade and worked out a price on an X3 built to their specs. They wanted Jet Black like their 330i but I suggested they should pay a bit extra for Black Sapphire because it just doesn't show every imperfection like Jet Black does. I know. I've had both and still have an E39 530i Sport/Premium MT in Jet Black. Quite a chore to keep that perfect.

They talked about what they needed and what they had on their current car and I configured an X3 to make sure they weren't missing anything they already had. When I came to Remote Start they said they often wished they'd had it on their current car, but I'd pulled the MSRP report on that one and told them they already had it. They had no idea. They were concerned the X3 would be far more expensive than the rather spartan 330i they had but by asking the right questions, a car to their spec came in just a couple of hundred over $50k, and they ordered one, knowing full well they might not see it until May or June.

Later that day we got an extra allocation of a SC-built X3 for April instead of the South African-built X3s we'd gotten allocated last month. I called them and asked if they'd mind getting their new car a month-or-so earlier and told them I could put it into a production slot today. They couldn't have been more pleased and told me how much they appreciated my taking the time to make the whole process so easy with never any pressure to make a purchase.

The only glitch was when they told me they had heard on Sean Hannity that Putin's negotiations to end the Ukraine invasion included a demand that the USA give Alaska back to Russia, and that "Biden was weak enough to probably agree to it." It's not their fault that they watch Fox news. I still treated them with respect. My Mother had the same affliction until I got her to watch her favorite niece on CNN years ago and caused a stir in my family when she voted in a Presidential election for a black Democrat.

So, had the couple not had access to a dealership, they'd have likely done the mail-order X5 and the wife would still be trying to haul her weak and fragile body into its driver's seat. Instead we all missed lunch but solved their problem without giving up his truck, or spending a ton of money.

. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

Yes, still hate them. The couple you reference can pay an upcharge for your services. I don't care to.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Okay, tell me how this scenario would have worked out with online-only purchases:
Couple wandered over from Service where their '21 330i was having its first oil change. He's pushing her in a wheelchair. I go out to talk with them. He's considering an X5. I open two used ones for them to check out, as we have no new ones. She wants to get in the driver's seat but she's had MS for 50-years. She still wants to be able to do it by herself. I let them work it out and she finally gives up. I suggest that an X3 would be a bit lower and the way they do the rocker panels as part of the door make it much easier for many people to get into. We don't have any of those either but I get the keys to a 2020 and bring it up for her. She finds it very easy to get into by herself and takes it for a drive with her husband in the passenger seat. He's still concerned it's too small so we get her other wheelchair our of their car and put both in the back of the X3. They fit easily. Now he decides not to trade his Nissan truck on an X5 and instead to trade her 330i on an X3 she can get in more easily with more room for her chairs.

I spent over three-hours with them today. Never met them before. We appraised their trade and worked out a price on an X3 built to their specs. They wanted Jet Black like their 330i but I suggested they should pay a bit extra for Black Sapphire because it just doesn't show every imperfection like Jet Black does. I know. I've had both and still have an E39 530i Sport/Premium MT in Jet Black. Quite a chore to keep that perfect.

They talked about what they needed and what they had on their current car and I configured an X3 to make sure they weren't missing anything they already had. When I came to Remote Start they said they often wished they'd had it on their current car, but I'd pulled the MSRP report on that one and told them they already had it. They had no idea. They were concerned the X3 would be far more expensive than the rather spartan 330i they had but by asking the right questions, a car to their spec came in just a couple of hundred over $50k, and they ordered one, knowing full well they might not see it until May or June.

Later that day we got an extra allocation of a SC-built X3 for April instead of the South African-built X3s we'd gotten allocated last month. I called them and asked if they'd mind getting their new car a month-or-so earlier and told them I could put it into a production slot today. They couldn't have been more pleased and told me how much they appreciated my taking the time to make the whole process so easy with never any pressure to make a purchase.

The only glitch was when they told me they had heard on Sean Hannity that Putin's negotiations to end the Ukraine invasion included a demand that the USA give Alaska back to Russia, and that "Biden was weak enough to probably agree to it." It's not their fault that they watch Fox news. I still treated them with respect. My Mother had the same affliction until I got her to watch her favorite niece on CNN years ago and caused a stir in my family when she voted in a Presidential election for a black Democrat.

So, had the couple not had access to a dealership, they'd have likely done the mail-order X5 and the wife would still be trying to haul her weak and fragile body into its driver's seat. Instead we all missed lunch but solved their problem without giving up his truck, or spending a ton of money.

. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

you can still have physical sales rooms where people can go in to order. Tesla has stores you can go in and check the cars out.

But theres absolutely no reason I have to go to a dealership just so the dealer can print out the build sheet i built online for me to physically sign so they can submit it electronically to the manufacturer.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

From my dealership experiences, it's not the sales advisors, it's the finance guys that make the dealership experience incredibly frustrating. Trying to get you to buy on monthly payment vs price, which is just a tactic to screw over the stupid people......which I don't feel bad for them but it's still crummy.

"You have my credit score and income, why is that the interest rate you're offering?" I've never had a problem letting dealer finance it as long as they will match the rates I know I can get elsewhere. Which I get once I point that out.

"No, I don't want the paint sealant."

"No, for the 3rd time, anyway you try to explain it, I'm not buying the extended warranty."

Ad nauseum. They make what should be a 10 minute process drag out for an hour or more.

I did have a good experience at the VW dealer I got my 135i from. It was an out of state deal, I drove my BRZ to Indianapolis to trade it in. We had everything worked out before I got there. I told them I wanted to pick the car up at 9am on X day with everything ready to go so I could start the drive back.

Finance guy had everything ready, the only reason we were there 15 minutes is stood around chatting for a few because the guy was so cool. And so the better half could have a free cup of coffee.

[Piper1]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Okay, tell me how this scenario would have worked out with online-only purchases:
. . . and still people hate sales advisors?

Ok...some of what's being said you're taking as a personal attack, I get it.

Let me state first that I more than most will fully understand and agree that the customer is NOT always right. At one point in my life I sold guns for a living. I've seen first hand management push gun sales through just to make the sale. I've also seen dealers loose their FFL (federal firearms license) for it.

That being said. I think most if not all on here can say they HATE shady sales persons. That is what honest hard working sales staff, such as yourself ARE up against.

The culture in sales is changing, whether you or I or anyone else like it or not.

When I sold archery equipment I always had an inside chuckle seeing someone who was over macho worked out a lot and thought they could handle the heaviest draw weight possible sold, only to find out they couldn't and my personal bow was of a heavier weight comfortable enough for me to shoot all day long than what they could handle. People don't realize till doing it shooting a bow requires a muscle usage you don't utilize day to day, including weight lifting.

The same goes for your customers you just referred to. Knowing their special needs, shame on them if they don't find vehicles to sit in to see if she could do it how she wants to.

But as others have said, you can have a show room to sit in what's offered then order online. I personally would never dream of ordering a car without ever sitting or driving the model first.

As a car salesman one thing you do have to consider is it's an investment, especially with the prices today. I hope you didn't buy the first house you walked into the first time you went house shopping without seeing others first. it's the same.

Since owning my first bmw 11 years ago being an e85 I looked at 5 before buying the one I did. 3 of those 5 were shady sales people I had dealt with. Looking for my e86 I looked at 3. The first was so shady when they gave me the pics online to look at and I addressed honest structural issues seen in the pics their comment "If you want it then buy it" well clearly I didn't. The next was a great private seller, it just didn't work out on my end. The one I ended up buying was from a dealer that everything just worked. As for my E82 feel free to look up a few posts I put in that section about the dealer I picked it up from. I will never EVER recommend them and will tell everyone to stay full clear of that dealer. The Sales manager built a culture "all cars leak oil" "Is it leaking, weeping or seeping" "because we don't fix certain leaks" And through their multi point inspection CPO or not they don't disclose anything actually found wrong. THOSE are what dealers people have spoken enough is enough. I'd expect that from a Chevy dealer, (which my E85 was from a Chevy dealer) this was a BMW dealer.

I can remember EVERY outstanding car sales person I've ever come across whether I purchased from them or not. And have great stories to tell. I CAN'T remember the names of the shady sales persons but CAN tell you what dealers to NEVER go to.

All of us as consumers have these stories and experiences. How/whom do you purchase your personal cars from?

Sales is part of a never ending change as a part of the world. You either change with it or you find something new to challenge yourself. There's no right or wrong path for you, it's in the end what you choose is best for yourself.