[blackpear]

I’ve ordered a new X3 despite concerns about a drop in quality.

I like the way BMWs handle and drive, I like their engines and I like sitting in a premium cockpit knowing I can rely on German quality.

However Germany car manufacturer margins are under severe pressure due to a big increase in production costs. This is mainly caused by the loss of cheap Russian gas which the German economy relied on and by other knock on effects of the Ukraine invasion.

In addition, the car manufacturers in Europe have onerous Government legislation to meet net zero and EV targets putting further pressure on ICE production. China is producing millions of cheap cars.

To maintain margins and profit I suspect BMW have trimmed costs in every area possible and that includes vehicle design, build, materials and production.

There is no doubt that those decisions are visible when I look at my current X3 vs the 2025 model. Plastic mouldings with colourful lights cannot hide a noticeable decline everywhere else. Plastic seats instead of leather, plastic door handles, knitted polyester dashboard, discarding other premium details inside and out by calling it a cleaner design.

BMW are obviously hoping that these cuts are insufficient to deter buyers and loyal customers. They may be right. I’m staying - for now.

But it is also possible that customers won’t pay premium prices for a non premium car. Nowadays things can change very quickly and they may find out the hard way that losing customer loyalty and trust will hit their profits far harder than the money saved from a bit of ‘build quality’ cost cutting.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by blackpear

I’ve ordered a new X3 despite concerns about a drop in quality.

I like the way BMWs handle and drive, I like their engines and I like sitting in a premium cockpit knowing I can rely on German quality.

However Germany car manufacturer margins are under severe pressure due to a big increase in production costs. This is mainly caused by the loss of cheap Russian gas which the German economy relied on and by other knock on effects of the Ukraine invasion.

In addition, the car manufacturers in Europe have onerous Government legislation to meet net zero and EV targets putting further pressure on ICE production. China is producing millions of cheap cars.

To maintain margins and profit I suspect BMW have trimmed costs in every area possible and that includes vehicle design, build, materials and production.

There is no doubt that those decisions are visible when I look at my current X3 vs the 2025 model. Plastic mouldings with colourful lights cannot hide a noticeable decline everywhere else. Plastic seats instead of leather, plastic door handles, knitted polyester dashboard, discarding other premium details inside and out by calling it a cleaner design.

BMW are obviously hoping that these cuts are insufficient to deter buyers and loyal customers. They may be right. I’m staying - for now.

But it is also possible that customers won’t pay premium prices for a non premium car. Nowadays things can change very quickly and they may find out the hard way that losing customer loyalty and trust will hit their profits far harder than the money saved from a bit of ‘build quality’ cost cutting.

For sure, it is no longer a premium product. The G45 I viewed at GFS looked and felt really cheap. Like you say, maybe BMW is hoping green washing and tacky plastic lights will dazzle buyers.

It’s sad but I suspect it is just the start of a slippery slope for BMW. I’ve already started looking at alternatives with compromises I can live with, and I won’t be the first time I moved from BMW because the product was poor.

G45 isn’t even here yet, but it’s easy to get 10% off. I think dealers will put a brave face on, but know it’s screwed. Won’t belong before discount is even higher and PCP apr drops.

PS Many BMW German cars are not made in Germany, the G45 being an example (mainly USA, South Africa, and China), but clearly BMW need to make up for the cars and components that are costing more to make in Germany. Also potentially big tariffs on importers Chinese cars in some places.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by blackpear

I’ve ordered a new X3 despite concerns about a drop in quality.

I like the way BMWs handle and drive, I like their engines and I like sitting in a premium cockpit knowing I can rely on German quality.

However Germany car manufacturer margins are under severe pressure due to a big increase in production costs. This is mainly caused by the loss of cheap Russian gas which the German economy relied on and by other knock on effects of the Ukraine invasion.

In addition, the car manufacturers in Europe have onerous Government legislation to meet net zero and EV targets putting further pressure on ICE production. China is producing millions of cheap cars.

To maintain margins and profit I suspect BMW have trimmed costs in every area possible and that includes vehicle design, build, materials and production.

There is no doubt that those decisions are visible when I look at my current X3 vs the 2025 model. Plastic mouldings with colourful lights cannot hide a noticeable decline everywhere else. Plastic seats instead of leather, plastic door handles, knitted polyester dashboard, discarding other premium details inside and out by calling it a cleaner design.

BMW are obviously hoping that these cuts are insufficient to deter buyers and loyal customers. They may be right. I’m staying - for now.

But it is also possible that customers won’t pay premium prices for a non premium car. Nowadays things can change very quickly and they may find out the hard way that losing customer loyalty and trust will hit their profits far harder than the money saved from a bit of ‘build quality’ cost cutting.

Many a true word I agree.

[Ravenous666]

Sale for the G45 seems to be lagging in Germany too. A fully loaded M50 is now around €96000,- including VAT which equals $106000,-.

I recently spoke to some people who ordered a G45 and they got up to 17% off MSRP. Placing a request on different car sales platforms got me 13-15% instantly.

17% is huge for a new model launch of the former best selling BMW line.

My 2020 X3 is flawless and I'm also yet unsure if I should order a new M50. Will take a look on the interior first and decide after getting an offer from my local dealer.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by blackpear

I’ve ordered a new X3 despite concerns about a drop in quality.

I like the way BMWs handle and drive, I like their engines and I like sitting in a premium cockpit knowing I can rely on German quality.

However Germany car manufacturer margins are under severe pressure due to a big increase in production costs. This is mainly caused by the loss of cheap Russian gas which the German economy relied on and by other knock on effects of the Ukraine invasion.

In addition, the car manufacturers in Europe have onerous Government legislation to meet net zero and EV targets putting further pressure on ICE production. China is producing millions of cheap cars.

To maintain margins and profit I suspect BMW have trimmed costs in every area possible and that includes vehicle design, build, materials and production.

There is no doubt that those decisions are visible when I look at my current X3 vs the 2025 model. Plastic mouldings with colourful lights cannot hide a noticeable decline everywhere else. Plastic seats instead of leather, plastic door handles, knitted polyester dashboard, discarding other premium details inside and out by calling it a cleaner design.

BMW are obviously hoping that these cuts are insufficient to deter buyers and loyal customers. They may be right. I’m staying - for now.

But it is also possible that customers won’t pay premium prices for a non premium car. Nowadays things can change very quickly and they may find out the hard way that losing customer loyalty and trust will hit their profits far harder than the money saved from a bit of ‘build quality’ cost cutting.

Your observations about cost reduction being revealed in material selections are spot-on. However, this does not equate to a reduction in quality. Once G45 gets past its first year and the typical new vehicle issues, there is no evidence to support expecting lower quality than from other/prior models. Quality is not plushness/luxury/premiumness, but a measure of the outcome of a part or system to achieve the original design/engineering objectives. High quality of low cost/basic/non-premium parts and materials exists. Otherwise, in a world with Rolls Royce, there could never be a high quality base model Honda Civic, where all the basic and low cost parts fit correctly, were assembled properly, and function according to the intent without failure. G45 demonstrates a cost-reduced approach that may/may not succeed, but for the parts designed and manufactured, I would expect BMW to achieve part quality from the supply base and assembly quality from their plants consistent with their ongoing performance.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by Ravenous666

Sale for the G45 seems to be lagging in Germany too. A fully loaded M50 is now around €96000,- including VAT which equals $106000,-.

I recently spoke to some people who ordered a G45 and they got up to 17% off MSRP. Placing a request on different car sales platforms got me 13-15% instantly.

17% is huge for a new model launch of the former best selling BMW line.

My 2020 X3 is flawless and I'm also yet unsurevif I should order a new M50. Will take a look on the interior first and decide after getting an offer from my local dealer.

I have a similar impression after taking to dealers here.

As a consumer, the G45 M50 I viewed didn’t have the quality feel or look of previous BMW products. It lacked those flourishes and quality material i.e. interior plastic that separate a premium quality brand from, a lower cost non premium brand. It didn’t make me feel I must have one in the slightest.

At the end of the day, it’s the consumer that determines the perception or quality by parting with their cash.

Let us know what you think when you get check one out.

[Ravenous666]

Only thing that let me think about the M50 G45 is the inline six with the ZF8HP. May be the last X3 with a 6 zylinder.

If the quality of the interior is not acceptable I'll save a lot of money and get a new VW Tiguan R 4WD TFSI with 265HP. Nice interior and €25000,- less than the G45 M50.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by Ravenous666

Only thing that let me think about the M50 G45 is the inline six with the ZF8HP. May be the last X3 with a 6 zylinder.

If the quality of the interior is not acceptable I'll save a lot of money and get a new VW Tiguan R 4WD TFSI with 265HP. Nice interior and €25000,- less than the G45 M50.

Check it out for yourself and decide.

I’m a big fan of the BMW X3 xdrive drivetrain and the 6 pot engine, particularly the diesel, but not at the cost of everything else that matters to me. Everything is usually a compromise, but the G45 is a compromise too far for me.

PS. Maybe there’s hope for future designs, as BMW appears to be making changes to its design department. I wonder why….

https://g45.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2132999

[JoeyO]

As a design engineer, I break quality into two types of quality. There is quality of materials and fit and finish and precision. Good examples are high-end German cars. Then there is quality of reliability. Good examples are Honda and Toyota. They feel like tin cans but they’ll rarely break down and they’ll last forever.

[Mavus]

horrid interior and very soft girly exterior design just needs eye lashes … maybe they are after diff type of customers

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

As a design engineer, I break quality into two types of quality. There is quality of materials and fit and finish and precision. Good examples are high-end German cars. Then there is quality of reliability. Good examples are Honda and Toyota. They feel like tin cans but they’ll rarely break down and they’ll last forever.

You get it. Quality is not how premium, plush or how much one likes how a material looks or feels. It's how well the part's structure and function meet it's original objectives. The fit and finish on high end German cars exhibit the quality of this exactness, but so can a Toyota that feels much less premium, even if the parts are much more basic and they fit perfectly.

The reason to emphasize this is that those who are intending G45 should not be put off by any here who question "quality" when they actually mean to convey that they don't like the shapes or choices of materials they perceive as downscale, whether exterior sheet metal or interior door trim panel, seats, or instrument panel surfaces. These may be disliked for feeling of touch or appearing too basic/non-premium, but for those who can accept them, there is no reason to fear the actual quality (understanding typical first year issues can occur) of how they were produced, how they fit, and how they function.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

As a design engineer, I break quality into two types of quality. There is quality of materials and fit and finish and precision. Good examples are high-end German cars. Then there is quality of reliability. Good examples are Honda and Toyota. They feel like tin cans but they’ll rarely break down and they’ll last forever.

You get it, the average consumer of a premium German car looks at the quality of materials, fit and finish, and also has an expectation that a premium product should be reliable.

[blackpear]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

You get it. Quality is not how premium, plush or how much one likes how a material looks or feels. It's how well the part's structure and function meet it's original objectives. The fit and finish on high end German cars exhibit the quality of this exactness, but so can a Toyota that feels much less premium, even if the parts are much more basic and they fit perfectly.

The reason to emphasize this is that those who are intending G45 should not be put off by any here who question "quality" when they actually mean to convey that they don't like the shapes or choices of materials they perceive as downscale, whether exterior sheet metal or interior door trim panel, seats, or instrument panel surfaces. These may be disliked for feeling of touch or appearing too basic/non-premium, but for those who can accept them, there is no reason to fear the actual quality (understanding typical first year issues can occur) of how they were produced, how they fit, and how they function.

Fair enough, I understand. But it feels a bit like you are quibbling about the semantics of quality.

A car purchase is not merely transactional and the perception of quality is more than function over form.

I suspect for many it is very much about touch and feel and how it looks. It’s about aspiration and what make you feel good. Colour and materials matter as well as how it drives.

If it were as you describe it, I’d choose a Toyota and have a Casio on my wrist. But I’ve worked hard and can afford better.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by blackpear

Fair enough, I understand. But it feels a bit like you are quibbling about the semantics of quality.

A car purchase is not merely transactional and the perception of quality is more than function over form.

I suspect for many it is very much about touch and feel and how it looks. It’s about aspiration and what make you feel good. Colour and materials matter as well as how it drives.

If it were as you describe it, I’d choose a Toyota and have a Casio on my wrist. But I’ve worked hard and can afford better.

I believe we agree conceptually and certainly we agree about what motivates buyers. Words are powerful so semantics to me is almost never a quibble and I believe details are important. It would be unfortunate if anyone avoided G45 based on fearing decreased "quality" if they actually liked how it turned out otherwise, because someone else mis-used the terminology and ill-advised them.

I'm not advocating a Toyota for someone seeking a premium experience. I am stating that quality can be found at all price points if a vehicle is well-executed, and is a wholly different attribute than premiumness which is what you and I agree also motivates luxury brand buyers...in addition to quality. Low/high quality and low/high premiumness could be plotted on the X/Y axis with some historical endpoint examples (could be others).....low quality/low premiumness: Yugo; low quality/high premiumness: Jaguar; high quality/low premiumness: Toyota; high quality/high premiumness: Lexus

Based on early reports and BMW overall capability currently, G45 may wind up high on quality, but not as high as desired on premiumness.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I believe we agree conceptually and certainly we agree about what motivates buyers. Words are powerful so semantics to me is almost never a quibble and I believe details are important. It would be unfortunate if anyone avoided G45 based on fearing decreased "quality" if they actually liked how it turned out otherwise, because someone else mis-used the terminology and ill-advised them.

I'm not advocating a Toyota for someone seeking a premium experience. I am stating that quality can be found at all price points if a vehicle is well-executed, and is a wholly different attribute than premiumness which is what you and I agree also motivates luxury brand buyers...in addition to quality. Low/high quality and low/high premiumness could be plotted on the X/Y axis with some historical endpoint examples (could be others).....low quality/low premiumness: Yugo; low quality/high premiumness: Jaguar; high quality/low premiumness: Toyota; high quality/high premiumness: Lexus

Based on early reports and BMW overall capability currently, G45 may wind up high on quality, but not as high as desired on premiumness.

So few people look at it like that that is not worth mentioning. To the overwhelming majority of folks quality not only pertains to the fit and finish but also the materials used. Premiumness is not a word you will find in any review as they refer to the quality of materials.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by TurtleBoy

So few people look at it like that that is not worth mentioning. To the overwhelming majority of folks quality not only pertains to the fit and finish but also the materials used. Premiumness is not a word you will find in any review as they refer to the quality of materials.

Not likely in the general public, I would agree, but why be constrained by that on this forum? The distinction is real, even if not widely understood. The general public seems to think that "I'm like..." means, "I said", "I thought", "I replied", "I opined", etc. and some actually go beyond speaking in that manner and also write that poorly. I see no reason to be limited by their loss of language and meaning here. My comments were for the car-involved members of this forum who are not representative of the general population and who discuss intricate details of vehicle parts and systems. Thus, I felt confident that the distinction of what is and is not an actual measure of quality would be a reasonable topic here. Nothing more to add. Moving on…

[avi66]

Originally Posted by blackpear

Fair enough, I understand. But it feels a bit like you are quibbling about the semantics of quality.

A car purchase is not merely transactional and the perception of quality is more than function over form.

I suspect for many it is very much about touch and feel and how it looks. It’s about aspiration and what make you feel good. Colour and materials matter as well as how it drives.

If it were as you describe it, I’d choose a Toyota and have a Casio on my wrist. But I’ve worked hard and can afford better.

It really is that simple for most consumers.

Purchasing something premium has an emotional dimension that is vital to the premium product segment. Like you say touch, feel, smell, experience etc evokes an emotional response that can make consumers part with more money, it’s “special”, “quality”, ”premium”……

Similarly, a lack of those things evokes negative emotions if it’s something we expect from a brand.

[TurtleBoy]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Not likely in the general public, I would agree, but why be constrained by that on this forum? The distinction is real, even if not widely understood. The general public seems to think that "I'm like..." means, "I said", "I thought", "I replied", "I opined", etc. and some actually go beyond speaking in that manner and also write that poorly. I see no reason to be limited by their loss of language and meaning here. My comments were for the car-involved members of this forum who are not representative of the general population and who discuss intricate details of vehicle parts and systems. Thus, I felt confident that the distinction of what is and is not an actual measure of quality would be a reasonable topic here. Nothing more to add. Moving on…

Remember one of the golden rules of speaking/writing, know your audience. While the members/visitors to the forum may be more interested in vehicles than the general public nothing has ever shown they speak/write or understand the English language any differently.

[mnx5er]

You are all spot on with the challenge for BMW. When I saw the new X3 interior I thought it looked like a cross of the iX and LCI X5. That wasn't good.

I current drive a 2025 iX. I love how it drives and the immediate power. Miss a high quality interior. I was cleaning it today and try to clean that plastic mesh like material around the interior. It is brutal and doesn't breathe quality. It feels more like high-end Kia. Still I love the car but am worried about where BMW is heading.

[Eric500]

The issue is that it is industry wide. Look at the competition for the X3

GLC overall is meh: looks boring - gives off economy crossover vibes, not sure if they fixed the software issues, bad build quality, ok material quality, flashy lights as mentioned for the X3 to hide to cost cutting as well.

new Q5: solid exterior, evidence of cost cutting in reveal videos for the new one. Audi takes a long time to arrive, so it won't even be released for like an entire year. the current one is super old but solid overall. I feel like VW reliability is an issue still

NX: boring and plain, slow, smallest in class. Also hit with massive cost cutting in material choices (like all new lexus - it's just as bad if not worse than what BMW has done). solid reliability and build quality though

Macan: unless you're paying like $80k for the S, don't even bother. the 4cyl is awful, the macan itself is basically a tiny lifted hatchback forget it if you need to carry adults in the back

Everything else - just a mix of different flavors of awfulness.

you just end up with the default being the bmw, that's why they are trying to get away with their own cost cutting

[MidnightLight]

The Genesis GV70 offers a pretty good luxury feel, along with the latest tech. I just couldn't get past the meh driving experience. But otherwise it's one of the few options out there that still feels premium compared to all its peers.

[Mavus]

my friend works for Genesis interior material and design and they are focused on great interior layouts and materials. I can see that.

My other friend selected gv70 over x3 m40 and said x3 feels like your avg interior and is not premium, therefore can’t justify paying for it. he also said gv70 rides better. he has no brand lotalty and never owned either one of them.