[carogers86]

Hi guys:

I am hoping to get some educated opinion/advice from fellow forum members regarding a situation I am finding myself in. I am within the last 30 days of my apartment lease agreement and am moving into a house I bought FTW!

Anyway, 45 days before my planned move out date I informed the apartment manager I would be moving out. She said she was sorry to see me go and I would need to fill out and turn in a "move out" packet 30 days before I moved out. I agreed and all was merry. Inspecting the document further, I noticed that there is a mandatory charge placed on tenants for carpet cleaning and vertical blind cleaning. I live in a one bed room apartment and the charge to clean the carpets is $55 and $1 per vertical blind (I have 66 vertical blinds) for a total of $121. I would also receive a charge of $45 to exchange the front door lock (for new tenant) bringing the total to $166. It is no financial strain to pay this fee, but I am a person of principle and cannot justify bending over, pulling down my pants, and wincing.

I have kept this and my previous apartment in EXCELLENT condition. I have never even hung picture frames in any of the two apartments I lived in. I have always had a "no shoes on the carpet" policy to keep the carpets in great shape (imagine the OCD of my car...). My previous apartment gave my deposit back in full. I kept this current apartment in EXCELLENT condition.

I brought the 'mandatory carpet and vertical blind cleaning' fee to the attention of my apartment manager. She explained that the carpets must be cleaned to CA standards at a temperature of yada, yada, yada. I acknowledged that may be the case, but I am perplexed as to why I would have to pay for it. She just said that has always been their policy. I pointed out that my father owns several houses and never charges renters to clean carpet as long as there is no damage above normal wear and tear (tears, stains, rips, etc.) She said that my father is "shooting himself in the foot because he should pass that expense on to leaving tenants."

I consulted with my father and he said not to sign their "move out" packet and he would draft me my own simple version stating my intent to vacate within 30 days:

July 6th, 2011


Per our previous conversation, you are hereby given thirty days notice of my intent to vacate unit *** at *** ********* Boulevard. You may make an appointment by calling me at (916) ***-3879 and enter the premises on either Friday August 6th, 2011 or to inspect for use or damage above the legal California standard of "normal wear and tear".


Sincerely,

bimmerpost member

Witness,

bimmerpost member's friend


I had one of the Assistant manager sign my version of the move out declaration and did not sign their move out packet nor the part that said I would agree to paying for carpet cleaning and vertical blind cleaning, coinciding with my Father's advice.

The story progresses with my GF who also resides at the residence being called several times at work today asking her to turn in the packet. I'm thinking, "why don't they just call me?" They must want to avoid me because they know I won't sign. I call up my apartment office and tell them that my father's property lawyer is in the process of validating the legal language contained in the packet and I will turn in the packet signed or not signed ASAP. (This was all verbal over the phone)

I then find myself in an e mail correspondence:

Hi bimmerpost member,

*Assistant manager* informed me that you still have some concerns regarding the move out packet. We need the packet returned so we can move forward with scheduling inspections and such. If you choose not to sign which ever form/s you are questioning, then as I asked you to do when you were in the office, just write that you refuse to sign and both you and my GF will need to sign that statement at each signature line you are refusing to sign and get the packet turned back in.

Thanks

*Apartment Manager*
Property Manager
R********** Apartments

My response:

*Apartment Manager*:

Thanks for addressing my recent call back regarding the move out packet. No new concerns on the packet. The packet (more specifically the carpet and slat cleaning portion) are under the review of my father's property lawyer. I am willing to sign or indicate a refusal to sign based on the lawyer's feedback. If it turns out the document and it's language are enforceable, I will be more than willing to sign the document in a manner favorable to R***********Apartments.

On the original submission of my 30 days notice to vacate *assistant manager* signed, I referenced a date for inspection. The inspection date to discern whether the unit has experienced use or damage above the legal California standard of "normal wear and tear" is August 6th, 2011. I would prefer to be present during the inspection and you can call me to verify the date and time. I appreciate your patience with me getting the packet returned.

bimmerpost member

APARTMENTS RESPONSE:

bimmerpost member,

Ok, well if that is case, I am not willing to wait to get word from you as to whether or not you are willing or un-willing to sign and return our paperwork so that we may proceed.

You have been served a notice of entry this afternoon for Friday July 15, 2011 between the hours of 3pm-4pm to allow my staff to conduct what is called the pre-inspection per our vacate packet that was issued to you on July 7, 2011. You are welcome to be present; however, we will enter whether you are there or not.

In addition, we still do not have the signature of the other responsible lease holder (my GF) on your notice to vacate, which could indicate you are the only party wishing to terminate your tenancy. I would recommend that My GF immediately turn in a 30-day notice to vacate as well stating her own intent or we will not be able to honor the move out date of August 8th as originally documented. I requested her signatures on July 7th when we discussed your original concerns regarding the vacate packet.

Although you have your own concerns, we still have our policies and procedures to follow and we would appreciate your co-operation in this process.

Thank you


*Apartment Manager*
Property Manager
R******** Apartments



Has anyone dealt with this before? Where should I go from here? Should I just stay put with my decision to not sign 'their' move out packet? Am I missing some tenant rights? I looked up Yelp reviews on this place and past tenants have warned that mysterious scratches appear and hubcaps or wheels are stolen off cars if you are on their bad side. I am concerned about leaving my car in the parking lot argh!

Any advice/ input is appreciated!

[jpsum]

didn't read the whole thing. But about the fee, if the fee is stated in the lease agreement, then you have to pay. If not, tell them to sue you.

The lease agreement should also tell you what you need to do before you vacant the place. Be it a written notice, or whatever. Do everything the lease says and you'll do fine. The lease is the only obligation you and the apartment management must fulfill, they can't make up new rules like telling you that you must sign a package and agree to a charge - if it was not mentioned in the lease agreement. If they withhold your money from your deposit, bring them to small claims court.

[carogers86]

I forgot to mention, the fee is coming out of my $500 deposit.

[JayKay335i]

Simple. If its stated in the original lease agreement you signed then you are responsible. If it is not stated in the original lease agreement then you are not.

Of all the apartments I've lived in the only thing I've seen is them coming through and doing an inspection for damage. Never did I have to sign a move out agreement or anything of the sort. The lease ends on so and so day and I must vacate by that day. My security deposit is returned within whatever amount of time is stated in the original lease and any problems will be noted and deducted.

You're place is trying to eff you. Check the original lease. The specific one that you signed and not their new current version.

[SchlauCow]

hey, i didn't read any of it, but i think my best advice is to never get duped into an itunes contract. i also thought of you fighting this thing, due to your title

[Quick6EF]

It's funny that my response is basically just to pay the fucking fee and chalk it up to a dirty move on their part.

The house I previously lived in did the exact same thing, except we paid $200 for Maid service before we left - - then get billed for another $125 of cleaning services as per the landlord/lease.


Sucks.

[Quick6EF]

Originally Posted by SchlauCow

hey, i didn't read any of it, but i think my best advice is to never get duped into an itunes contract. i also thought of you fighting this thing, due to your title

lol your brain works in a different (funny) realm

[carogers86]

Originally Posted by JayKay335i

Simple. If its stated in the original lease agreement you signed then you are responsible. If it is not stated in the original lease agreement then you are not.

Of all the apartments I've lived in the only thing I've seen is them coming through and doing an inspection for damage. Never did I have to sign a move out agreement or anything of the sort. The lease ends on so and so day and I must vacate by that day. My security deposit is returned within whatever amount of time is stated in the original lease and any problems will be noted and deducted.

You're place is trying to eff you. Check the original lease. The specific one that you signed and not their new current version.

Reviewed original lease agreement and it is not included. I mentioned this to my Pops, and he said that would not even be enforceable if it was in the original lease agreement because you can only charge for items exceeding 'normal wear and tear." He said it would be similar to him having making a contract that read, "tenant needs to replace carpets after move out." The judge would throw that out in favor of the tenant.

[Kroy]

Did you clean the carpet yourself or do you think the carpet is clean as is?

[carogers86]

Originally Posted by Kroy

Did you clean the carpet yourself or do you think the carpet is clean as is?

I vacuumed the carpet regularly. There are no stains, tears, or excessively worn padding. The carpet was new when I first moved in. I understand that the carpet must be cleaned for the next tenant, but I am disputing why that cleaning fee should be passed on to me (current tenant).

Its my belief that this should be the landlord's responsibility. If I need to pay for the carpets getting cleaned, the blinds being cleaned (they are virgin white), and the front door lock being exchanged, why don't they throw in the expense of painting the walls too??

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by carogers86

Reviewed original lease agreement and it is not included. I mentioned this to my Pops, and he said that would not even be enforceable if it was in the original lease agreement because you can only charge for items exceeding 'normal wear and tear." He said it would be similar to him having making a contract that read, "tenant needs to replace carpets after move out." The judge would throw that out in favor of the tenant.

If it was in the lease, you could get it overturned, but it'd be a hell of a lot of hassle, and still not definitive.
With it NOT being in the lease, there is zero way they can enforce it and I would definitely fight this tooth and nail like you are (way to go).

Make sure you take pictures, etc showing the lack of damage in ALL areas.

As said though if it's not in the lease, they can't enforce it. They're basically trying to pull one over on you. if your state is like PA there's an entire state dept dedicated to this stuff, might want to give them a ring as well.

[Seminole]

Originally Posted by carogers86

APARTMENTS RESPONSE:

bimmerpost member,

Ok, well if that is case, I am not willing to wait to get word from you as to whether or not you are willing or un-willing to sign and return our paperwork so that we may proceed.

You have been served a notice of entry this afternoon for Friday July 15, 2011 between the hours of 3pm-4pm to allow my staff to conduct what is called the pre-inspection per our vacate packet that was issued to you on July 7, 2011. You are welcome to be present; however, we will enter whether you are there or not.

In addition, we still do not have the signature of the other responsible lease holder (my GF) on your notice to vacate, which could indicate you are the only party wishing to terminate your tenancy. I would recommend that My GF immediately turn in a 30-day notice to vacate as well stating her own intent or we will not be able to honor the move out date of August 8th as originally documented. I requested her signatures on July 7th when we discussed your original concerns regarding the vacate packet.

Although you have your own concerns, we still have our policies and procedures to follow and we would appreciate your co-operation in this process.

Thank you


*Apartment Manager*
Property Manager
R******** Apartments

First, there is nothing in the State law saying they can even do a pre-move out inspection, "If the tenant does not request an initial inspection, the landlord does not have any other duties with respect to the initial inspection". YOU, however, are allowed to request a "initial inspection before move out" which you did in writing. The law states, "When the tenant requests an initial inspection, the landlord and the tenant must try to agree on a mutually convenient date and time for the inspection. The inspection cannot be scheduled earlier than two weeks before the end of the tenancy or lease term." (http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...pectionsidebar). So, once again, they violated law by telling you when they were going to enter whether you liked it or not. By law it must be a "mutually convenient date and time".

This site has some great information for you: http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...iving-in.shtml

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by Seminole

First, there is nothing in the State law saying they can even do a pre-move out inspection, "If the tenant does not request an initial inspection, the landlord does not have any other duties with respect to the initial inspection". YOU, however, are allowed to request a "initial inspection before move out" which you did in writing. The law states, "When the tenant requests an initial inspection, the landlord and the tenant must try to agree on a mutually convenient date and time for the inspection. The inspection cannot be scheduled earlier than two weeks before the end of the tenancy or lease term." (http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...pectionsidebar). So, once again, they violated law by telling you when they were going to enter whether you liked it or not. By law it must be a "mutually convenient date and time".

This site has some great information for you: http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...iving-in.shtml

figured california had something like that, use that site, cite that stuff it'll get them to shut up real quick

[JayKay335i]

Sounds like you're in the free and clear. Definitely state the law to them. Reschedule the inspection for a convenient time. Definitely tell them to get papercuts on their butthole.

[M3Bahn]

I would have your dad's attorney send them a letter and they should then back off.

[Seminole]

Also found this for you:

California law specifically allows the landlord to use a tenant's security deposit for four purposes:

-For unpaid rent;
-For cleaning the rental unit when the tenant moves out, but only to make the unit as clean as it was when the tenant first moved in;
-For repair of damages, other than normal wear and tear, caused by the tenant or the tenant's guests; and
-If the lease or rental agreement allows it, for the cost of restoring or replacing furniture, furnishings, or other items of personal property (including keys), other than because of normal wear and tear


A landlord can withhold from the security deposit only those amounts that are reasonably necessary for these purposes. The security deposit cannot be used for repairing defects that existed in the unit before you moved in, for conditions caused by normal wear and tear during your tenancy or previous tenancies, or for cleaning a rental unit that is as clean as it was when you moved in. A rental agreement or lease can never state that a security deposit is "nonrefundable."

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...-deposit.shtml

So, by my interpertation of that they cannot charge you to clean the apartment if it is as clean as when you moved in. Boom, headshot.


Also, here is the Civil Code section discussing everything: http://law.onecle.com/california/civil/1950.5.html

It says in there that:

"Within a reasonable time after notification of either
party's intention to terminate the tenancy, or before the end of the
lease term, the landlord shall notify the tenant in writing of his or
her option to request an initial inspection and of his or her right
to be present at the inspection."

So you DO have a right to be there. And they failed to notify you that it was YOUR option to request the inspection. They are trying to be sneaky and have you sign the paperwork and then they claim that you signing the paperwork is your "request" for the inspection.

I'd consult with your dad's attorney for all of this and then have him draft a letter telling them to go fuck themselves and have a nice day.



I accept payment for my services in cold beer or hookers.

[carogers86]

You guys are all great. So much info in such a short amount of time. Freakazoid, I did not even know such tenant sites existed. Extremely helpful.

Wish I could have exited the rental scene a lot nicer!

[carogers86]

Originally Posted by Seminole

First, there is nothing in the State law saying they can even do a pre-move out inspection, "If the tenant does not request an initial inspection, the landlord does not have any other duties with respect to the initial inspection". YOU, however, are allowed to request a "initial inspection before move out" which you did in writing. The law states, "When the tenant requests an initial inspection, the landlord and the tenant must try to agree on a mutually convenient date and time for the inspection. The inspection cannot be scheduled earlier than two weeks before the end of the tenancy or lease term." (http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...pectionsidebar). So, once again, they violated law by telling you when they were going to enter whether you liked it or not. By law it must be a "mutually convenient date and time".

This site has some great information for you: http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/l...iving-in.shtml

Very helpful. Thanks Seminole!!

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by carogers86

You guys are all great. So much info in such a short amount of time. Freakazoid, I did not even know such tenant sites existed. Extremely helpful.

Wish I could have exited the rental scene a lot nicer!

I'd even recommend digging deeper, there's probably even a state dept number that you can give your landlords to 'call if they have any questions'. no matter where you go in the world there's bullies...but knowledge shuts 'em up

[Seminole]

Originally Posted by carogers86

Very helpful. Thanks Seminole!!

No problemo. I hate landlords who try and pull this shit. They know that people don't have a clue about the laws so they try to get away with it.

[ABQ325i]

If it is inconvenient for you to be there on Friday then I would email the Apartment Manager the links Seminole posted along with a list of dates and times which are convenient to you for them to meet you to do an inspection.

Make sure you make it clear to them that you have read the up the pertinent Civil Code Sections and that you understand your rights. Be firm but be polite.

[UncleWede]

"You have been served a notice of entry this afternoon for Friday July 15, 2011 between the hours of 3pm-4pm "
If they had stopped there, you would have no recourse but to know they were coming.
This is within the landlord's right to inspect/repair/whatever they want to do.


"to allow my staff to conduct what is called the pre-inspection per our vacate packet that was issued to you on July 7, 2011. "
This muddles it up quite a bit. I don't know how a judge would interpret that additional portion. But the landlord DOES have a right to give you a notice of entry and then come into your place. I'm not positive on the amount of warning they need to give you.

Some form of cleaning (steam, shampoo, chemical) is standard and customary for retuning the carpets to their condition at the time of move-in. You can have it done yourself, or pay their rates. Check the lease, some of them state the method that must be used.