[StewtheBassman]

Boy, those new SUVs better be awesome. It seems strange that GM will soon be surpassed by Toyota. It also seems strange that GMs very existence is now hinging on whether Delphi union members strike or not. It's a very tense situation.

I still have my '98 Jimmy 4x4 SLT. It has about 100,000 miles, on it and it runs great.

I abandoned my Saab because of repeatedly poor service. BMW serves me like a king.

Honestly, I would have stayed with GM had the service been better. I never even thought about BMW before that. Now I have two.

[Bimmerista]

Interesting, if even otherwise favorably pre-disposed clients are turned away from GM, they have bigger problems than the UAW and the pension overhang.

When we first came to Canada, my parents loved everything North American. We owned 4-5 GM cars, all of them Oldsmobiles, including the Delta 98s and 88s, and several Cutlass Sierras.

Frankly, the cars were crap. They were not even confortable for long distance cruising because (A) the seats were too soft - no support and (B) the wallowing suspension got on even my mother's nerves after a while. Plus, despite their honking 8 and large displacement 6es, their three speed tranny made us shiver at the sight of yet another hill to get over. AND the dealer service was not good - you had to hagle over everything (whether covered by warranty or not etc.)... Of course this was in the eighties and early nineties.

By then we as a familly unit "turned" on GM and the US car Cos in general. Several Mazdas followed and each one put a smile on our faces.

Now I have come back to German cars (which we owned when we lived in Europe) and it would take a heck of a lot before I would seriously consider American car manufacturers again. Have to say that what Cadillac is doing is definately on the right track.

Well, that's my point of view. I am not surprised at where GM is from a product perspective. From an economic perspective, GM put a shotgun to its head and the union's hand on the trigger when Wagoner's predecessor thought it was a good idea to sign collective agreements that guaranteed permanent employment to the UAW. Folks, that system did not work for the Soviets and it ain't going to work for GM. There, now I sound like the Autoextremist.

[ase2dais]

It is a sad day in American if ever GM really goes, but their problems are self-inflicted, sad to say.

I remember the days of the Muscle-Cars, when it was pure joy to own American cars like Mustangs, Corvettes, Firebirds, Camaros, Trans Am, Challengers, 'Cudas and others. Such pride to have those cars, and see them cruise America's Main Streets on Summer wkends nights. As much as I know they are still around, I feel no excitement as before, seems like these cars are just repackaged.

I hope that the current restructuring will be just on time to turn the company around in improving their products and services.

Why? you asked.
I didnt abandon GM, GM abandon ME!

GOD BLESS America!

ok! now back to yu bimmer boys !

[StewtheBassman]

My Mom had a Delta 88 in the early 80s...that car was a boat. I drove it from New Hampshire to Milwaukee in 27 hours when they moved, blaring David Bowie's "let's dance" album the whole way. It was so comfortable. Our recent rental of a Dodge Charger reminded me of it.

Admittedly, the 1994 (post GM) Saab I had was problematic, but for the most part a good car. I sold it after 6 years. The 2000 9-3 went 139,000kms before ANY problems. It was just the service that blew me away.

There are 130k UAW emplyees at GM. If the 30k Delphi employees strike, they'll bring all those other "brothers" down too.

You all know- I would buy a Solstice (or two) if I could, AND a Corvette. Still think GM makes some good cars.

[ward]

my dad buys GM still, they've got him roped in with that stupid GM card.

They break down on him, die on the road, have tranny's die at 40,000 miles

I have no idea why he stiill buys them

[Bimmerista]

[
You all know- I would buy a Solstice (or two) if I could, AND a Corvette. Still think GM makes some good cars.[/QUOTE]

Interesting,

I would rather buy the Miata (MX5) and the Porsche rather than the Vette

[ward]

they use the same tranny in the solstice as they use in the colorado pickup

GM does everything wrong

[StewtheBassman]

I'd buy the Solstice for its looks, and the 'Vette for its performance.

Yah, the MX5 probably performs a bit better, and the Porsche MIGHT get more looks from hot chicks...

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by StewtheBassman

I'd buy the Solstice for its looks, and the 'Vette for its performance.

Yah, the MX5 probably performs a bit better, and the Porsche WILL get more looks from hot chicks...

Fixed.

[Accounting4Speed]

It's the way of the world my friends. It has become too expensive to produce cheap cars in America. The auto manufacturers should have seen this coming and either outsourced or divested tthemselves into other businesses, like GE and IBM. Neither company really does what they were founded to do, but yet they are mighty comglomerates that time and time again set the benchmark. GM should have packed it up years ago when Japanese cars started becoming popular because they saw the profits drop out of the market, yet they foolishly thought they could recover. And people wonder why so many companies are getting out of the PC business, because there are no profits and it's impossible to compete with a giant like Dell.

[icedragon]

GM's fata flaw is its lack of individual brand identity. Instead of separately advertising the unique characteristics of each of its individual companies (like Saab), GM tends to advertise their cars as a "clump" of GM vehicles. Check out their website. They don't even have individual websites for each car company, they just group them all on the GM website. That and the fact that their reliability is pathetic. I can't wait to see GM disappear because, as of now, it's dragging down car industry standards.

[NaTuReB0Y]

hahaha....employee discount ploy couldn't save their asses!

Toyota already surpassed GM..........

[espo]

Originally Posted by Accounting4Speed

It's the way of the world my friends. It has become too expensive to produce cheap cars in America.

If I'm not mistaken are not most of the Honda's (and some of the Acura's) sold in the US actually built in the US? I know Honda has a hugh plant in Ohio that builds Accords and Civics as well as a number of SUVs. So you can build an affordable dependable car in the US.

GM's (as well as the rest of the big US car companies problems) are a result of decisions made long ago when Imports didn't really exist in this country. The labor agreements and management decisions have left the companies with a large fixed cost structure. For the companies to produce a car with the same consumer price point as an import, they need to spend LESS on the car itself and MORE to pay for the fixed labor expense. Therefore, they tend to have to use cheaper (read less reliable) parts and designs then the imports. In that case, no matter how good the assembly is, the car is still crap.

People then say "Why buy a GM car when I can get this import for the same price and it's reliable!" GM sells less units and then the fixed costs become a greater percentage of any one car, they have to then spend LESS to make the same car. The car is even more unreliable, and then they lose more business.... It's a classic downward spirul in manufacturing business when a new company enters the market (foreign car companies) without the same fixed cost burden.

Unfornutately there is no way GM (or Ford and Chevy) can really survive in this market in their current forms. They will need to do something drastic sometime in the near future. GM is the first, but will not be the last major US car company in deep trouble.

Just my 2 cents...

[deutschmann59]

Ah GM. My dad's 2002 Cadillac Deville had to be towed out of our garage a week ago (with a tow truck) because it wouldn't start. It couldn't even be jumped.

It turns out the rear left passenger window would go down, but as it went down again and again over time, it eventually cut some kind of wire and shorted out the whole car

And never drive a Deville on a winding road when you're used to your bimmer--the results could be catastrophic!

[JonnyCrash]

Simply put, GM is a dinosaur. I didn't abandon them, I never went near them in the first place! If I wanted a car that handled like a pregnant yak, they'd be high on my list... but, sadly, I do not.

What makes me curious is that they can make some good cars, like the Corvette, and sell them at an amazing price point. So, why do they screw up everything else they do? I believe it is because they are so quick to try and cut corners to produce and design new vehicles as cheaply and quickly as possible that they do not take the time and effort to do proper market research or invest in reliability: making a reliable car is not much harder than making a good one once you pass the design phase! GM has to stop and really THINK about what cars they want to market, and then go with them. Take the time and money to make them great, and THEN bring them to market... even if they cost slightly more than they do now. At the same time, scrap all the cars they only make so they have something in a certain segment. As long as GM tries to be a jack of all trades (segments), they will literally be the master of none.

[StewtheBassman]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

Ah GM. My dad's 2002 Cadillac Deville had to be towed out of our garage a week ago (with a tow truck) because it wouldn't start. It couldn't even be jumped.

It turns out the rear left passenger window would go down, but as it went down again and again over time, it eventually cut some kind of wire and shorted out the whole car

And never drive a Deville on a winding road when you're used to your bimmer--the results could be catastrophic!

I have a client with a 2000 Caddy, tons of electrical problems.

[espo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Abulia

I believe it is because they are so quick to try and cut corners to produce and design new vehicles as cheaply and quickly as possible that they do not take the time and effort to do proper market research or invest in reliability: making a reliable car is not much harder than making a good one once you pass the design phase! GM has to stop and really THINK about what cars they want to market, and then go with them. Take the time and money to make them great, and THEN bring them to market... even if they cost slightly more than they do now. At the same time, scrap all the cars they only make so they have something in a certain segment. As long as GM tries to be a jack of all trades (segments), they will literally be the master of none.

That's not only a problem with GM, that's a problem with most american companies. I'm in R&D and try to sell that concept above almost every day to various business and engineering people, but they just wont get it... Everything is about doing it yesterday and cheaper... Then when it doesn't work, go blame the guys in R&D :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ward]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

hahaha....employee discount ploy couldn't save their asses!

Toyota already surpassed GM..........

that ploy was just to attempt to prevent layoffs,
they've been making more cars than they could sell for quite some time and stock was piling up at dealerships. They had to give the cars away at minimal profits just to keep the factory's open

then they had to lay off 30,000 anyway

[jetmechG550]

I've never been a fan of anything made by GM after 1970. My Dad's a Cadillac fan and he's had a number of issues with each of the last three. Fortunately his only saving grace is dumping them before the warranty is out. What bugs me with large companies like this though, is they don't seem to have a problem buying and taking delivery of about $200 million in new iron to fly people around. And you gotta love those fabulous unions, look how much they do for ya now.

[NaTuReB0Y]

They have another ploy in the making......RED TAG SALE!
GM and friend

[StewtheBassman]

I think there must be alot of creative people at GM who are champing at the bit to get the job done but the "old ways" seem still to permeate their strategies. It really doesn't help that the unions hogtied GM (who let them) and they're bound to these contracts.

[Hunter399]

The Vette Z06 is a SICK car....