[clbmw]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Maybe you don’t

You cannot speak for others…

I personally love having the ability when it’s useful or truly needed for safety reasons… Imagine that ❕

I agree acceleration ability can be very useful, especially when trying to move out of the way of others or joining a motorway, but I’ve never heard of any ordinary accident or incident that could have been avoided if the car was capable of 0-60 in less than 3 seconds maybe dodging a small meteorite?

Yesterday, I’m glad our iX3 doesn’t accelerate as quickly as that; I needed to seize a gap in the traffic and as I did thankfully I spotted someone pull out where she was to give way and the brakes had to go on hard, had I already been doing 30 I may have hit her. I don’t the think the iX3 has been a poor seller because it takes 6.5 secs to 60

[therealm3]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Maybe you don’t

You cannot speak for others…

I personally love having the ability when it’s useful or truly needed for safety reasons… Imagine that ❕

I don’t have to imagine. I have an i4 m50. And it’s plenty fast to get out of its own way. :- ).

[therealm3]

Originally Posted by sikotic

"Who cares?"... Probably most people? Just consider why manufacturers prioritize faster 0-60 times over extended range. If the demand was for slower cars with longer range, then the car market would look very different than it does now.

If you want a slow car thats fine, but there's no reason that Hyundai and Tesla's 50,60k offerings should be faster than anything that BMW currently makes.

I don’t want a slow car. But a 3 sec suv is beyond “fast”. We are conditioned by marketing people to be concerned with 0-60 times. Just like I can all but guarantee the first question people ask about an ev is “what’s the range”. When in reality the majority of people don’t drive enough on a daily basis for it to matter.

[AventurinG26]

Honestly a little shocked they’re going to be waiting until March 2026 to start US Production. I was hoping for an early 2025 start for the Neue Klasse models. I don’t care about the iX3, I really want to see what the actual next gen 3-series EV is going to look like, how much range it is going to offer and what pricing will be. If they go nuts and try to price these new EVs $20K higher than their ICE equivalents they’ll never get the volume needed to drag their supply chain pricing way down. Tesla reached profitability by hitting high volume. Looking at the i4 today, the M50 starts over $70K without a single option. Sure it’s quick but it’s rather dull, slow charging, and it doesn’t even have an active M differential like the much less expensive M340i. That’s something I hate about all of BMW’s EVs currently even the $$120-180K i7 xDrive60/M70 is that they don’t get an active rear differential. They need one. They also have to improve traction control and power distribution. If you drive a Tesla you can floor it and there’s not even a whiff of wheel spin. It just goes. The BMWs all spin their front tires which feels very hot hatch more than rear biased AWD luxury performance vehicle.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AventurinG26

Honestly a little shocked they’re going to be waiting until March 2026 to start US Production. I was hoping for an early 2025 start for the Neue Klasse models. I don’t care about the iX3, I really want to see what the actual next gen 3-series EV is going to look like, how much range it is going to offer and what pricing will be. If they go nuts and try to price these new EVs $20K higher than their ICE equivalents they’ll never get the volume needed to drag their supply chain pricing way down. Tesla reached profitability by hitting high volume. Looking at the i4 today, the M50 starts over $70K without a single option. Sure it’s quick but it’s rather dull, slow charging, and it doesn’t even have an active M differential like the much less expensive M340i. That’s something I hate about all of BMW’s EVs currently even the $$120-180K i7 xDrive60/M70 is that they don’t get an active rear differential. They need one. They also have to improve traction control and power distribution. If you drive a Tesla you can floor it and there’s not even a whiff of wheel spin. It just goes. The BMWs all spin their front tires which feels very hot hatch more than rear biased AWD luxury performance vehicle.

I am hoping they are timing it for new battery technology. If it's another lithium ion battery, hard pass while waiting for solid state or some other new version of LFP that isn't susceptible to thermal runaway. My 2024 non-mild hybrid X3 will allow me time to be patient for the right electrical solution.

[AventurinG26]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am hoping they are timing it for new battery technology. If it's another lithium ion battery, hard pass while waiting for solid state or some other new version of LFP that isn't susceptible to thermal runaway. My 2024 non-mild hybrid X3 will allow me time to be patient for the right electrical solution.

It’s lithium ion. This has already been confirmed. They’re using 4695 and 46120 cells, but they’re going to be about 30% more energy dense than the pouch cells they use now, and about 40% more energy dense than Tesla’s 4680 cells they’re building in house. LFP is super heavy so I don’t see them using those in anything but entry level models that are geared towards people who don’t care if their car is slow and heavy, they just want a bmw badge. Think 2-series GranCoupe or Active Tourer type thing. Maybe a future MINI. We’ve had our i7 xDrive60 for almost 9 months now and it’s been great. It beats the range estimate by 40-60 miles at 80MPH on the highway. If it was 800V and could charge 10-80% in 13 minutes like the refreshed Taycan it would be perfect.

The photos are from our recent trip from Eastern NC to Nashville, TN. Almost 600 miles. Only had to stop once for about 32 minutes and it charged 6-92%. Arrived in Nashville with about 20% remaining. It hit 3.3mi/kWh which works out to around 340 miles. I couldn’t be happier with that result. For a big huge heavy car like the 7-series that also has big fat tires and 20” wheels, it’s a very good result. Better than a Model S in real world conditions.

Legit solid state batteries on a mass produced scale are still years away. With the amount of improvement available to Li-Ion cells vs. what BMW is currently using I don’t see anything wrong with NCM chemistry other than the use of cobalt which has already been greatly reduced vs. earlier Li-Ion cells.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AventurinG26

Legit solid state batteries on a mass produced scale are still years away. With the amount of improvement available to Li-Ion cells vs. what BMW is currently using I don’t see anything wrong with NCM chemistry other than the use of cobalt which has already been greatly reduced vs. earlier Li-Ion cells.

Respectfully, a prior colleague is now an engineer at a battery company and his advice was not to park or charge a lithium ion battery vehicle in my garage or adjacent to our house. He only drives LFP EVs such as the base Mach E due to safety and solid state will be the next step, perhaps sooner from China than US or Germany. He shared some info on battery testing, combustion temperatures, etc and advised me not to buy anything lithium ion which he predicts will eventually be regulated out of existence due to safety. He did say if one does get into thermal runaway, don't waste time trying to extinguish it...just run. It's a low frequency event, but almost unmanageable and devasting when it happens until it burns itself out of oxygen that it propogates. Ongoing topic on LinkedIn among the automotive suppliers...no one has figured out how to extinguish or contain an event quickly yet. Even the lithium ion battery in a mild hybrid may be involved apparently.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2...fe-216613.html

https://mbworld.org/how-tos/slidesho...uilding-981807

https://www.thedrive.com/news/that-f...500-evs-not-25

As a result, a similar attitude to my engineering colleague...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...ze/ar-AA1ofCgD

The data on frequency is apparently questionable, as the comparisons of EV fires to ICE fires include ICE of all ages with most ICE in the most published study over 10 years of age. I have not seen data on fires in EV vs ICE in vehicles less than 1 or 2 years old.

[AventurinG26]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Respectfully, a prior colleague is now an engineer at a battery company and his advice was not to park or charge a lithium ion battery vehicle in my garage or adjacent to our house. He only drives LFP EVs such as the base Mach E due to safety and solid state will be the next step, perhaps sooner from China than US or Germany. He shared some info on battery testing, combustion temperatures, etc and advised me not to buy anything lithium ion which he predicts will eventually be regulated out of existence due to safety. He did say if one does get into thermal runaway, don't waste time trying to extinguish it...just run. It's a low frequency event, but almost unmanageable and devasting when it happens until it burns itself out of oxygen that it propogates. Ongoing topic on LinkedIn among the automotive suppliers...no one has figured out how to extinguish or contain an event quickly yet. Even the lithium ion battery in a mild hybrid may be involved apparently.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/2023-bmw-x7-spontaneously-burns-to-a-crisp-in-garage-family-dog-saved-everyone-s-life-216613.html

https://mbworld.org/how-tos/slideshows/mercedes-eqe-disasterously-catches-fire-inside-building-981807

https://www.thedrive.com/news/that-flaming-cargo-ship-is-loaded-with-nearly-500-evs-not-25

As a result, a similar attitude to my engineering colleague...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/exclusive-kt-bans-evs-in-underground-parking-lots-after-mercedes-blaze/ar-AA1ofCgD

The data on frequency is apparently questionable, as the [...]

There are millions of battery electric vehicles on the road with Li-Ion cells in China, Europe, and N. America. Do fires occasionally happen? Yes. They also happen with ICE vehicles. They’re not commonplace. The MME is one of the worst EVs for sale. It’s brutally inefficient with no heat pump and the AWD models have two permanent magnet motors without any ability to disconnect one of them from the half shafts when not needed. I’m honestly a little surprised any engineer would buy one of those vehicles. It’s also got the worst thermal management system of just about any EV available. After as little as 5 seconds of hard acceleration the car starts to limit power output because the cells and motors overheat. It charges painfully slow and weighs more than most of its competitors in the small crossover EV segment.

Anytime an EV fire happens it makes the news. Every day there are car fires in vehicles of all makes and models. Millions of ICE and HEV vehicles have Li-Ion battery packs, including most BMWs sold today. If the risk of catastrophic and sudden fire was so great I don’t think we would see companies installing them in nearly every car they build. Look at the ICE and PHEV versions of the 3/4/5/7/X3/X4/X5/X6/X7/XM. They all have Li-Ion battery packs that power the ISG and allow the cars to operate as MHEVs. Energy is captured during braking and stored in the Li-Ion battery pack.

Solid state cells have been the next big thing for years. Company after company claims to have solved issues with various problems and that they’re right on the cusp of being mass produced, yet it still hasn’t happened. It will be several years before we see large scale adoption of a solid state battery in any mass produced vehicle.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by AventurinG26

There are millions of battery electric vehicles on the road with Li-Ion cells in China, Europe, and N. America. Do fires occasionally happen? Yes. They also happen with ICE vehicles. They’re not commonplace. The MME is one of the worst EVs for sale. It’s brutally inefficient with no heat pump and the AWD models have two permanent magnet motors without any ability to disconnect one of them from the half shafts when not needed. I’m honestly a little surprised any engineer would buy one of those vehicles. It’s also got the worst thermal management system of just about any EV available. After as little as 5 seconds of hard acceleration the car starts to limit power output because the cells and motors overheat. It charges painfully slow and weighs more than most of its competitors in the small crossover EV segment.

Anytime an EV fire happens it makes the news. Every day there are car fires in vehicles of all makes and models. Millions of ICE and HEV vehicles have Li-Ion battery packs, including most BMWs sold today. If the risk of catastrophic and sudden fire was so great I don’t think we would see companies installing them in nearly every car they build. Look at the ICE and PHEV versions of the 3/4/5/7/X3/X4/X5/X6/X7/XM. They all have Li-Ion battery packs that power the ISG and allow the cars to operate as MHEVs. Energy is captured during braking and stored in the Li-Ion battery pack.

Solid state cells have been the next big thing for years. Company after company claims to have solved issues with various problems and that they’re right on the cusp of being mass produced, yet it still hasn’t happened. It will be several years before we see large scale adoption of a solid state battery in any mass produced vehicle.

Yes, the EV thermal runaway events are relativey rare, but the distinguishing problem is that ICE fires can usually be readily extinguished by the fire department or sometimes, a homeowner, before taking down most or all of a house (or a cargo ship). The Korean parking lot decision noted above was not taken lightly given the role of Hyundai in that country. Lithium ion battery fires are different. The advice from fire professionals and some engineers is to grab your family and get out and don't even try.

If you are comparing EV to ICE fires, please filter for vehicle age and history. Most of the ICE fires noted in a recent study of comparisons were from ICE vehicles over ten years of age. More relevant would be the rate among comparably new vehicles.

This engineer is a mild mannered brilliant guy for whom a car is a transportation appliance...not personally interested in performance, but very concerned with safety, thus his acceptance currently only of LFP batteries. He could design a spec to support more than 5 seconds of hard acceleration, but I doubt he's ever personally tried that in his own car in his life.

I just bought a 2024 X330i to avoid any lithium ion in my garage and get me enough years of use to wait for solid state. I'm willing to wait as the upside of an EV now doesn't justify the potential risk. We just built our new home in 2021. From reading about the amazing products at the Beijing auto show and factories and sales outlets already being planned in Mexico and Canada, my first EV may come from China if they bring solid state first, likely before 2030.

I respect all/your choices, but Neue Klasse drops off my list if still with liquid electrolyte and lithium ion chemistry. I just hope BMW is working to correct this sooner than later.

[myg45]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Yes, the EV thermal runaway events are relativey rare, but the distinguishing problem is that ICE fires can usually be readily extinguished by the fire department or sometimes, a homeowner, before taking down most or all of a house (or a cargo ship). The Korean parking lot decision noted above was not taken lightly given the role of Hyundai in that country. Lithium ion battery fires are different. The advice from fire professionals and some engineers is to grab your family and get out and don't even try.

If you are comparing EV to ICE fires, please filter for vehicle age and history. Most of the ICE fires noted in a recent study of comparisons were from ICE vehicles over ten years of age. More relevant would be the rate among comparably new vehicles.

This engineer is a mild mannered brilliant guy for whom a car is a transportation appliance...not personally interested in performance, but very concerned with safety, thus his acceptance currently only of LFP batteries. He could design a spec to support more than 5 seconds of hard acceleration, but I doubt he's ever personally tried that in his own car in his life.

I just bought a 2024 X330i to avoid any lithium ion in my garage and get me enough years of use to wait for solid state. I'm willing to wait as the upside of an EV now doesn't justify the potential risk. We just built our new home in 2021. From reading about the amazing products at the Beijing auto show and factories and sales outlets already being planned in Mexico and Canada, my first EV may come from China if they bring solid state first, likely before 2030.

I respect all/your choices, but Neue Klasse drops off my list if still with liquid electrolyte and lithium ion chemistry. I just hope BMW is working to correct this sooner than later.

Yes, like you, I am waiting for the solid-state battery EV. It may come some time 2026. It could be expensive (not extremely) when it comes out. What you want is the long range. At least 400 miles plus. Other than that, go with hybrid for now.

[Kjenndal]

BMW says with the NCAR platform it will be benchmark in pricing. So I can expect an iX3 for the price of a Model Y long range RWD?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by myg45

Yes, like you, I am waiting for the solid-state battery EV. It may come some time 2026. It could be expensive (not extremely) when it comes out. What you want is the long range. At least 400 miles plus. Other than that, go with hybrid for now.

Actually, range is not a significant issue for me. I'll have a charger in my garage and I'm driving less than 5000 miles per year. A 300 mile charge could likely last for a few weeks for me. I'm not a hybrid intender as they still rely on lithium ion batteries, albeit in a smaller packge, but just as combustible. Also, some quality data has shown that PHEVs have more issues than either ICE or BEV, not surprising as they carry the odds of something happening with both systems.