[FJJB]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

I meant mostly in day to day usability not necessarily performance. Ideally, one's garage would have an M4 for daily driving and a 991 GT3 for the weekend.

Maybe I am mistaken about the 911's convenience with the front trunk though.

If I had to choose one car to own I'd choose the M4. If I was in the position to own two cars, I would have a practical daily driver and then a GT3 in the garage.

Fair enough.

For me the M3 is a weekend / nice day commute car, and I have SUV for the train station, nasty weather and bulky errands. I think the main drawbacks to the 911 would be smaller rear seats (no issues for me, kids are forward facing but still tiny) and accommodating golf clubs (which essentially live in the trunk of the M3 with a bag of clothes for emergency deployment).

But I can see for a true, one car daily that the M3 can make more sense for many - especially those who occasionally need to put adults or larger offspring in the back.

My garage wants a Caterham or some other form of truly stupid transportation (Morgan 3 wheeler?) added to the fleet.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I really wanted to like the GTS. It had the sport chrono package, lowered suspension, etc... i was excited to get it on a track. But I think two of the worst factors for me was opting for the PDK and the 4wd. I'm quite sure i would have enjoyed my time with it much more if it didn't have those options. Everyone raved about the PDK but that was one of the nagging issues that kept it at the dealer. The lag in 1st gear and the clunking going into 2nd gear was dreadful. Every time you started the car, the first time shifting from 1st to 2nd the tranny would lag for ever. If you were getting on it, pulling into traffic or something and were at high RPM when it shifted, it sounded like the tranny just dropped out of the car. Plus the lag is so long that it would be bouncing off rev limiter until the inevitable kick in the ass when 2nd gear finally engaged. Porsche NA, once i got them involved just brushed it off by stating that was a characteristic of the PDK.

The 4wd was a whole other issue that really dampened the joy of running twisty roads at a relaxed pace. If you went into a turn at yawning 4-5 tenths of the cars capabilities everything was fine. You got to experience that precise Porsche steering. If you went into the corner at spirited 6-7 tenths, the front wheel drive would kick on mid corner and cause the front end to push, then you let off because you're running wide, and then the front end bites again. If you went in the corner at a track day 8 tenths or higher, the car seemed to have the 4wd already on and it behaved well. It's not always possible or responsible to drive at 8 tenths on the street, which made daily driving it either boring or unpredictable.

The oddest thing about this car that neither the dealer or Porsche NA had an explanation for was the unsettled, floating, super light steering feeling the car had when over 110mph. I remember after breaking the engine in for a good 1k miles, i was on the highway late at night an had an opportunity to make a high speed run when no one was around. The first time i hit 120 i slowed down very quickly, made sure the deployable spoiler was out and did it again. Same feeling which was very unsettling. My first car, 1985 supra felt more stable at 120 than this 2012 GTS4. I don't know what it was, but the most i felt comfortable doing was an indicated 135. The M3 is a stark contrast in this department. I've been at an indicated 167 and it felt just as stable as if you were doing 90.

Just like the article stated, it seemed the GTS was always fighting what i wanted it to do. That's why i suppose deleting the dynamic 4wd and PDK would make it more enjoyable. Who knows, maybe i'll give a 2wd version another go. But then the Cayman and all it's available mods makes that a hard decision to make. I keep thinking more and more that a modded Cayman is something that i could get into.

But for now, i'm trying to see how the project E30 is going to turn out. Track suspension on a 1991 318is with modded E30 M3 motor putting out about 290hp should be a load of fun to drive. At the tuner now getting new fuel mapping. Should be the last hurdle to get it running right.

I had the same floaty front end feeling in my 997 Turbo. I'm telling you, my E92M3's were much more planted north of 120 mph than any 911 I owned. My former CaymanS was very well planted.

Porsche build fantastic vehicles but like you and Gthal have noted.....they are not without their faults like ever other manufacturer out there.

Off topic --- love the Bastiat quote......I have a feeling we have much more in common than just our interest in cars.

[David70]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I'm not a badge whore, I would buy a Porsche before I ever considered a Ferrari. I would buy a GT-R over any BMW as well. I just don't really care for BMW cars and generally they don't measure up to Porsche performance.

Like I said, nothing you can tell me will convince my otherwise - objectively they are absolutely better cars, it's the subjective measures where people have their differences.

Drives: E90 6Spd ZSP

???

I hope to have one a 911 at some point, would only buy used and it would be a weekend car. Initial cost isn't what bother me but instead depreciation. I only end up driving my weekend car very limited miles and I don't want these limited miles to cost a massive amount per mile.

If I buy a $60k car and sell it for $45k it may be a better deal and more fun to own than buying a $40k car that after the same amount of time and use is worth $20k when I sell it.

Used ones aren't overpriced, the market decides the price and people are buying and selling them. You can say they are more than you think they are worth. I thought a house down the street was priced for far more than it was worth, it sold for what they asked and quickly so obviously it was priced where it should have been or maybe they should have asked for more.

I believe my Z4M's (not at all saying or trying to debate it is at the same league as a Porsche) value has only dropped about $3k- $5k in the last 4 years and have a hard time replacing it with a car that would cost 3-4 times as much to own (whether I can afford it or not), especially if the main reason is to gain a few seconds on lap times.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by David70

???

I hope to have one a 911 at some point, would only buy used and it would be a weekend car. Initial cost isn't what bother me but instead depreciation. I only end up driving my weekend car very limited miles and I don't want these limited miles to cost a massive amount per mile.

If I buy a $60k car and sell it for $45k it may be a better deal and more fun to own than buying a $40k car that after the same amount of time and use is worth $20k when I sell it.

Used ones aren't overpriced, the market decides the price and people are buying and selling them. You can say they are more than you think they are worth. I thought a house down the street was priced for far more than it was worth, it sold for what they asked and quickly so obviously it was priced where it should have been or maybe they should have asked for more.

I believe my Z4M's (not at all saying or trying to debate it is at the same league as a Porsche) value has only dropped about $3k- $5k in the last 4 years and have a hard time replacing it with a car that would cost 3-4 times as much to own (whether I can afford it or not), especially if the main reason is to gain a few seconds on lap times.

Right, for a car that has very limited use, even 4-5 y.o. is a bit much for me (again, someone who has already had a 997 Turbo sees things differently). But I see 2008 997 Carrera S's at prices I can aspire to (with young kids, that looming $1,600/mo. to college is always something better spent on for most).....so it may very well be 7 y.o. with 45k miles that is something I can get at some point....

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by alms21

I had the same floaty front end feeling in my 997 Turbo. I'm telling you, my E92M3's were much more planted north of 120 mph than any 911 I owned. My former CaymanS was very well planted.

Porsche build fantastic vehicles but like you and Gthal have noted.....they are not without their faults like ever other manufacturer out there.

Off topic --- love the Bastiat quote......I have a feeling we have much more in common than just our interest in cars.

Aside from test driving my mothers 2000 Boxster, the 2012 GTS is my only other Porsche experience. That Boxster was a dream to drive compared to the 911. The M3 felt as planted as the Boxster but with power and throttle that can substitute for a steering wheel.

I would love to have something like this... From these guys. But these make modern Porsches look inexpensive.

http://singervehicledesign.com

[1MOREMOD]

Those things are sick but so is the price tag.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Those things are sick but so is the price tag.

No doubt, i think you can get a modern Ferrari and a 911 for that money. My father looked into it wanting to feed his hunger for Porsche nostalgia a little while back and i recall him quoting something around the $340k mark.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

No doubt, i think you can get a modern Ferrari and a 911 for that money. My father looked into it wanting to feed his hunger for Porsche nostalgia a little while back and i recall him quoting something around the $340k mark.

I've seen upwards of 500 depending on level.

[marksae]

You still need to find a donor car first right?

[1MOREMOD]

I always thought I would but might not happen now got onto bmw and not sure I wanna spend what little money I have on one.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I think a significant part of the Porsche ownership experience is that in a 911 (more so that "lessor models") you stand out and receive a fair amount of attention - not always positive but mostly - and you have to be ok with that.
Having random people talking to you about your car, smiling, waving and shouting at you as you drive past can be a bit unsettling and personally I found it a little wearing at times.
Plus you have to get over leaving it in public places while you shop, eat etc - that takes a while. Although in 20 years I only got a scratch down the side of one of my 911s and that might have been accidental.
They are great cars to own though, just don't expect it to be some out of world experience to drive, its just a car.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I think a significant part of the Porsche ownership experience is that in a 911 (more so that "lessor models") you stand out and receive a fair amount of attention - not always positive but mostly - and you have to be ok with that.
Having random people talking to you about your car, smiling, waving and shouting at you as you drive past can be a bit unsettling and personally I found it a little wearing at times.
Plus you have to get over leaving it in public places while you shop, eat etc - that takes a while. Although in 20 years I only got a scratch down the side of one of my 911s and that might have been accidental.
They are great cars to own though, just don't expect it to be some out of world experience to drive, its just a car.

To be honest with you, I've never felt that a 911 was all the special. It's styling isn't one that is adored by nearly all....compared to that of a Ferrari. My former CaymanS got a bit of attention because it was completely new car for Porsche (2006) but the 911's never garnered that much attention and nowhere near the attention that my GTR did (again, most likely because non car people didn't know what it was).

I do agree with you 100% on the "feeling" of owning a 911 and there are a ton of people that buy them primarliy for the status.

I have not extensively driven a 991 versioned 911 but my former 996 and 997 variants were nice.....but nothing like "oh my god..I am driving God's chariot" like some around here (see Revcrazy/Wolfinwolfclothing/EffEighty...who is the same person just in different screen names after getting banned time and time again) seem to think.

[John 070]

An '89 944 Turbo S that I was watching sold for $30,200. That car will likely go up in value. Unlike an E92, which btw I own and love.

It's pretty cool to be able to say a 911 is just a car, like non chalant, devil may care, been there done that. I always thought Romney would be like that, your house that you pay 18k in property taxes and work hard for ain't no thing to him, he wouldn't visit as it's only got 6 baths.

But everybody sees things differently. To me, a brand new GTI is a fun car to drive (had one for 4 days on business). To another, they wouldn't be caught dead in one, their butlers wouldn't even drive one!

[V1.47fan]

NO

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I've seen upwards of 500 depending on level.

I think you are really buying a bespoke piece of art at that level. Certainly the degree of finish on them is exquisite. Not a car that is suited to taking to a track day and caning it all afternoon, so it's not really competing against 991 turbos or 458 Italias or whatever. It's more of a, "put on your stringback driving gloves and go for a run thru the mountains on a Sunday morning" kind of car. It would be nice to have the means to be able to own a car like that for that purpose, as well as a newer Ferrari or something to enjoy in a different way.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

I think you are really buying a bespoke piece of art at that level. Certainly the degree of finish on them is exquisite. Not a car that is suited to taking to a track day and caning it all afternoon, so it's not really competing against 991 turbos or 458 Italias or whatever. It's more of a, "put on your stringback driving gloves and go for a run thru the mountains on a Sunday morning" kind of car. It would be nice to have the means to be able to own a car like that for that purpose, as well as a newer Ferrari or something to enjoy in a different way.

That's why it's not for me! Also the money.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

No doubt, i think you can get a modern Ferrari and a 911 for that money. My father looked into it wanting to feed his hunger for Porsche nostalgia a little while back and i recall him quoting something around the $340k mark.

I'm not totally surprised by that number. What did surprise me was seeing 1981 VW Vanagons for 87k. Nostalgia is nice, but my buddy and I felt those numbers were absurd. There's nothing wrong with modern, like a 2008+ 997. If you're rich why not, get the Vanagon...it's cool

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by John 070

I'm not totally surprised by that number. What did surprise me was seeing 1981 VW Vanagons for 87k. Nostalgia is nice, but my buddy and I felt those numbers were absurd. There's nothing wrong with modern, like a 2008+ 997. If you're rich why not, get the Vanagon...it's cool

I think you can get an older 911 and recreate what they are doing performance wise. Fit, finish, paint, materials, craftsmanship are all on another level, but you could do an old 911 track car for a fraction. Just wouldn't be so pretty or even street legal for that matter.

$90k for a Vanagon is twice as crazy than that 89 944T. I haven't driven a new GTI yet, but they look great and seem to perform very well. Lots of bang for the buck. My only issue with it would be Fwd. I'm not even a fan of 4wd, well except on the Rover.

[Mr Tonka]

Hell, you can buy this for $55k....




or this for 944 for $9K




or this project 911s for $15k

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I think you can get an older 911 and recreate what they are doing performance wise. Fit, finish, paint, materials, craftsmanship are all on another level, but you could do an old 911 track car for a fraction. Just wouldn't be so pretty or even street legal for that matter.

$90k for a Vanagon is twice as crazy than that 89 944T. I haven't driven a new GTI yet, but they look great and seem to perform very well. Lots of bang for the buck. My only issue with it would be Fwd. I'm not even a fan of 4wd, well except on the Rover.

For whatever reason, I find the 997 to still look good today, but the 996 less so....I've seen some super high pricing on Vanagons and Jeep Grand Wagoneers from the 70-80's....

http://www.wagonmaster.com/inventory/

Yeah I'm serious, the GTI feels faster than it is....I had a DSG of course as it was National Car Rental...but I would prefer a 6-man....

[dsad1]

I just looked up the 911's residual. I am questioning why I am not in one right now. Always assumed they had horrible residuals.

[ASAP]

Lol, yes if a 2014 Turbo S drops to the 70K range... within 3 years that it.