[black_beauty]

it's really simple, if BMW offered more manual transmissions, they would sell more manual transmissions. For example, it's ridiculous that the 320i and 328i xDrives are not available with a manual. Those would sell here. Even more ridiculous is that you cannot get any 4 series convertible with a manual, not one of them.

BMW - if you are reading this - sell more manuals in America, please! If you need evidence that they will sell, read this post that goes on for 30 pages!!!

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...ght=enthusiast

[chrisny]

Originally Posted by F32 N55

an A/T will also appeal to a broader audience come resale time.....

I think even this fact is something changing of late. I had an '09 S5 and on that car, at the time I sold it (2010) having an auto actually hurt my resale. But now, I'm not sure the same would hold true on a 4 series (the sedans presumably would've been more desired as automatics even a few years ago).

[WhiteFalcon]

The manual transmission in the F30 is awesome! The day they stop offering manuals is the day I stop driving BMWs.

[focal]

Originally Posted by WhiteFalcon

The manual transmission in the F30 is awesome! The day they stop offering manuals is the day I stop driving BMWs.

the only other company still MT friendly is VW. Audi is phasing out slowly also.

Subaru with a few in their Impreza line

The pickings are getting slim FAST.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by ThaiBruin

At least the M cars will continue to have manual options for the foreseeable future. Last I read, at least a 1/3 of M cars sold are manuals. So for those of us who want to continue driving a 3/4 series with a manual transmission, we just have to... make a lot more money.

Doesn't 2/3 of the "M" cars being AT's tell you MT's are history?

The new StingRay Z06 has an 8AT as one of two available transmissions.

Want to bet which gets the higher take rate since the factory race cars are not MT's

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by black_beauty

it's really simple, if BMW offered more manual transmissions, they would sell more manual transmissions. For example, it's ridiculous that the 320i and 328i xDrives are not available with a manual. Those would sell here. Even more ridiculous is that you cannot get any 4 series convertible with a manual, not one of them.

BMW - if you are reading this - sell more manuals in America, please! If you need evidence that they will sell, read this post that goes on for 30 pages!!!

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...ght=enthusiast

BMW sells 10/11K 3 series a month. Membership here is not even a drop in the bucket compared to that. Additionally not everyone here wants a MT.

When Porsche bailed on it top performance model & Lamborghini, Ferrari etc don't remember what an MT is the curtain started to come down. I have 3 MT's & enjoy driving them but the business case is against them. Plus the AT's even up are quicker & handle better.

[WhiteFalcon]

Originally Posted by focal

the only other company still MT friendly is VW. Audi is phasing out slowly also.

Subaru with a few in their Impreza line

The pickings are getting slim FAST.

The trend toward automation has been going on for a while now. With each new iteration more of driving are taken over by computers.

Things like lane departure warning, blind spot detection, self parking, self braking, radar-based cruise control... the list goes on and on.

These optional features are big profit drivers for the manufacturers, so it's no surprise they are being pushed onto consumers.

I'm not against automation as a choice, but I'm against automation as the only option.

[kako-shirazi]

At least I got to drive one before its death.

[black_beauty]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

BMW sells 10/11K 3 series a month. Membership here is not even a drop in the bucket compared to that. Additionally not everyone here wants a MT.

When Porsche bailed on it top performance model & Lamborghini, Ferrari etc don't remember what an MT is the curtain started to come down. I have 3 MT's & enjoy driving them but the business case is against them. Plus the AT's even up are quicker & handle better.

The point was more about freedom of choice, even though that was not overtly stated, than an army of BMW buyers swaying the manufacturer. You're right, the business decisions dominate the situation, of course, and the 8AT or 7DCT like yours are awesome, fast and smooth. There's plenty of BMW's out there that are auto and may never leave comfort mode, driven by someone more interested in transportation that the driving itself.

The freedom of choice is about a small number of enthusiasts who still want to feel that feeling of shifting themselves and for those loyal BMW lovers, even though in a shrinking minority, I feel the company should provide them with their beloved manual transmissions. It's a feeling that is beyond reason and rational decisions.

[olinjohnston]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

Chicken and egg argument.


I say lets just recognize that it is just easier to streamline the production of automatic transmissions, they are cheaper to make, better MPG (strict standards coming), better performance, greater appeal to more customers, ... but please BMW, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. I mean come on! No MT on the 4 GC? No MT on the 328xi? 320xi? Wagons? Diesel? All no MT offerings. Pretty weak!

It is certainly NOT a "chicken and egg argument."

When the F10 5-Series was released, the 535i and 550i were both offered with 6-speed manuals. Two years ago, BMW removed the option of a stick for the 550i because unlike the old E39 540i, no one wanted to order it...possibly because now ordering a manual transmission means you have slower acceleration, contrary to what it used to mean. Last year, they even dropped it for the 535i for the same reason - sad. Point is, BMW will build whatever will sell. When consumers stop demanding something, a company would be stupid to continue producing that thing.

At the dealer I work for, I do much of our inventory ordering and have always tried to make a push for more manual transmission cars. I built an awesome 228i M-Sport (a car more likely to be bought with a stick than any 3-Series.) It was Estoril blue on black, and the only other options were Technology Package and Lighting. We got TONS of calls on the car from people assuming that "manual" on the website was either a mistake, or that it meant "Steptronic." Some people even came in to look at it and left disappointed that it was not an automatic. The car sat for so long that the BATTERY DIED, until the right buyer finally came along, at a deep discount. I was criticized a few sales people for ordering that car, calling the 6-speed a "boat anchor" to the sale.


We'll see how my manual M3, M4, and 320i Sport Package do when they arrive from the port...

BMW continues to offer the manual transmission on cars that will most likely be sold to people who who value the purest/rawest form of driver engagement - Eg: not overweight all-wheel drive cars, wagons, and diesels (which have a low redline and shift a lot anyway).

It's a matter of demand, demand, demand...

[skw]

Originally Posted by DrivenByE30

I did my part... do yours...

At least i wont feel guilty i contributed to its death...

+1

Originally Posted by black_beauty

it's really simple, if BMW offered more manual transmissions, they would sell more manual transmissions. For example, it's ridiculous that the 320i and 328i xDrives are not available with a manual. Those would sell here.

This^^^ Personally, as much as I love a rwd car, I would've given serious consideration (and probably pushed into it by my wife) if the 320 or 328 were avail w/ the 6MT.

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

It is certainly NOT a "chicken and egg argument."

When the F10 5-Series was released, the 535i and 550i were both offered with 6-speed manuals. Two years ago, BMW removed the option of a stick for the 550i because unlike the old E39 540i, no one wanted to order it...possibly because now ordering a manual transmission means you have slower acceleration, contrary to what it used to mean. Last year, they even dropped it for the 535i for the same reason - sad. Point is, BMW will build whatever will sell. When consumers stop demanding something, a company would be stupid to continue producing that thing.

At the dealer I work for, I do much of our inventory ordering and have always tried to make a push for more manual transmission cars. I built an awesome 228i M-Sport (a car more likely to be bought with a stick than any 3-Series.) It was Estoril blue on black, and the only other options were Technology Package and Lighting. We got TONS of calls on the car from people assuming that "manual" on the website was either a mistake, or that it meant "Steptronic." Some people even came in to look at it and left disappointed that it was not an automatic. The car sat for so long that the BATTERY DIED, until the right buyer finally came along, at a deep discount. I was criticized a few sales people for ordering that car, calling the 6-speed a "boat anchor" to the sale.


We'll see how my manual M3, M4, and 320i Sport Package do when they arrive from the port...

BMW continues to offer the manual transmission on cars that will most likely be sold to people who who value the purest/rawest form of driver engagement - Eg: not overweight all-wheel drive cars, wagons, and diesels (which have a low redline and shift a lot anyway).

It's a matter of demand, demand, demand...

Killing off the 6MT in the 535 earlier this year is part of what pushed me into an F30. I wish someone who ordered like you worked on the east coast!

[olinjohnston]

Originally Posted by skw

I wish someone who ordered like you worked on the east coast!

Thanks!

I am really trying to make a case for them because manual lovers, while rare, are a very vocal clientele! Honestly that's the only reason why BMW still offers the ones they do. It doesn't make business sense to allow production for ALL models, but the ones that are available are the ones that benefit from it most.

I have talked to BMW NA face-to-face about it, and they are always very enthusiastic about continuing to offer the manual transmission. It is also the standard transmission in the new M3 and M4. Honestly they would produce a 50/50 auto/manual mix if that's what the market demanded...They are not trying to kill it.

If anything is experiencing a slow death, it's driving enthusiasm as a whole. Young people are no longer as obsessed about learning to drive, getting a license, and buying a car. People would rather be able to access Facebook, Twitter, and read their text messages than having a connection to the car. The societal push for self-driving vehicles is even stronger. If anything in a BMW is "getting soft" when it comes to driver engagement, trust that these unwelcome changes are 100% reactionary to consumer feedback.

I used to work in service administration for a different BMW dealer, and I would read all the CSI surveys. One of the final questions asks what engineering changes they might like to see. Multiple times, I saw people complaining that the steering wheel was too hard to turn in their E90, the cup holders were inadequate, and the infotainment needed more integration with their devices. As nice as the F30 is to drive, it became clear that the mass-market was no longer concerned with the "spirit of driving" and the suggestions were never things that improved sportiness.

[Vegetable]

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

Thanks!

I am really trying to make a case for them because manual lovers, while rare, are a very vocal clientele! Honestly that's the only reason why BMW still offers the ones they do. It doesn't make business sense to allow production for ALL models, but the ones that are available are the ones that benefit from it most.

I have talked to BMW NA face-to-face about it, and they are always very enthusiastic about continuing to offer the manual transmission. It is also the standard transmission in the new M3 and M4. Honestly they would produce a 50/50 auto/manual mix if that's what the market demanded...They are not trying to kill it.

If anything is experiencing a slow death, it's driving enthusiasm as a whole. Young people are no longer as obsessed about learning to drive, getting a license, and buying a car. People would rather be able to access Facebook, Twitter, and read their text messages than having a connection to the car. The societal push for self-driving vehicles is even stronger. If anything in a BMW is "getting soft" when it comes to driver engagement, trust that these unwelcome changes are 100% reactionary to consumer feedback.

I used to work in service administration for a different BMW dealer, and I would read all the CSI surveys. One of the final questions asks what engineering changes they might like to see. Multiple times, I saw people complaining that the steering wheel was too hard to turn in their E90, the cup holders were inadequate, and the infotainment needed more integration with their devices. As nice as the F30 is to drive, it became clear that the mass-market was no longer concerned with the "spirit of driving" and the suggestions were never things that improved sportiness.

Generation Y when it comes to autos.

Edit: And I am accepting 1 million + dollar grants to do a longitudinal study to support that driving a manual gearbox (due to neural plasticity and what not) will help prevent Alzheimer's disease and other forms of neural decline as we age. Not really.. but yea, kinda really

[olinjohnston]

Originally Posted by black_beauty

BMW - if you are reading this - sell more manuals in America, please! If you need evidence that they will sell, read this post that goes on for 30 pages!!!

If a manual is offered on a particular model, a dealer can configure ALL to be manuals if they want them to be...It's just a matter of finding people to buy them. I'm on your side, but you guys must realize that if the manual buyer is a minority on F30post, in the normal realm of car shoppers, they so few and far between they are an almost non-existent statistic.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by stewie

It should also be mentioned that after decades of paying extra for an automatic, BMW is now charging the same for each transmission, effectively making AT a "free" option in North America. My understanding is that this is the only market in the world where this pricing exists. As a result, MT buyers are effectively subsidizing AT buyers. I have always bought MT, but the lack of a "discount" on the DIY transmission had me seriously considering the AT for the first time ever. Stuck with the stick shift, but frankly I'm not happy about the pricing. At least they still offer it, I guess...

Just to clarify - the change to making the automatic standard did not make it "free". BMWNA raised the base price of the 3er when the automatic became standard. So, yes the exceedingly few manual transmission buyers are providing a tiny subsidy to the automatic buyers. But all those automatic buyers are no longer asking, "Why should I have to pay $1,200 for an automatic transmission on my $50,000 car?" Of course they're still paying for it. They just don't have to look at it on the window sticker. Perception is reality.

[vabopi]

BMW adjusts the offer to each market.

Here, and I believe similarly to most other european countries, AT is an option that costs well over USD 3,000. Thus, AT cars are a small minority.

Also, BMW petrol motors are rare, diesels are now the overwhelming majority, due to fiscal and environment policies, I am now driving my 1st diesel - excellent with AT, btw

Things are so different that, out of curiosity, I simulated to build my car configuration on the US Bmw site: USD 52,250. My home site list price: EUR 61,187 (>USD 82,000) !!!

[Falafel Combo]

I agree with most of what has been posted so far. Great discussion.


And also just wish to reiterate that, sadly, MT owners and enthusiasts are a measly drop in the bucket when it comes to total sales numbers. We are grossly over represented on these forums. We are surely not a reflection of the BMW demograph as a whole. We can bitch about the lack of MT models all day (believe me, I will continue to do so) but if the sales aren't there, it ain't gonna happen. Cynical? Perhaps.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

If a manual is offered on a particular model, a dealer can configure ALL to be manuals if they want them to be...It's just a matter of finding people to buy them. I'm on your side, but you guys must realize that if the manual buyer is a minority on F30post, in the normal realm of car shoppers, they so few and far between they are an almost non-existent statistic.

I agree. If I worked at a dealership, I would find it extremely hard to justify ordering a manual car for the lot. MT drivers are usually very specific, and if you leave just one option off (Dynamic Handling, Sport VS M Sport package, ...) they might just rather wait for an ordered car.


I just hope that when (not if) BMW takes away the manual transmission option, they can at least find a way to offer it as a cost option or maybe as an individual option. I don't care. I'll pay the extra $1200 or $2000 for an MT. It's worth it to me, as I am sure it is for others.

[Steven1077]

It's not hard to see why people are choosing the AT these days, the positions have been reversed, back in the day the MT was faster and gave more MPG, not anymore though, less MPG, slower, and puts out more pollution, so who needs it? Maybe on a super car, but lets face it, most of those no longer have a stick, I'm surprised BMW haven't started charging more for the MT over the AT

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

If anything is experiencing a slow death, it's driving enthusiasm as a whole. Young people are no longer as obsessed about learning to drive, getting a license, and buying a car. People would rather be able to access Facebook, Twitter, and read their text messages than having a connection to the car. The societal push for self-driving vehicles is even stronger. If anything in a BMW is "getting soft" when it comes to driver engagement, trust that these unwelcome changes are 100% reactionary to consumer feedback.

I used to work in service administration for a different BMW dealer, and I would read all the CSI surveys. One of the final questions asks what engineering changes they might like to see. Multiple times, I saw people complaining that the steering wheel was too hard to turn in their E90, the cup holders were inadequate, and the infotainment needed more integration with their devices. As nice as the F30 is to drive, it became clear that the mass-market was no longer concerned with the "spirit of driving" and the suggestions were never things that improved sportiness.

Interesting observations... times are changing.

I sense in the UK driving is now getting much more tedious anyway. There is far less opportunity to enjoy a performance car in day to day driving. I see it that many folks are now looking for a premium car with many more creature comforts, to get some sort of satisfaction from the driving experience, if we can even call it that.

All the regulation, tax dictated decisions, road congestion, enforced speed restrictions, all help to kill the raw thrill of driving. The car has to fill all the requirements for many, MT can be an enthusiast's dream, but a 'luxury' too far these days for many daily drivers. An autobox just naturally fits into this mix, stop-start driving, emission related tax burden, cost of fuel etc., etc. Becomes an acceptable compromise even for many enthusiasts. I've fallen for this myself, MT is not now on my radar, even though I was an MT driver and rejected the thought of AT for many years.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

I agree with most of what has been posted so far. Great discussion.


And also just wish to reiterate that, sadly, MT owners and enthusiasts are a measly drop in the bucket when it comes to total sales numbers. We are grossly over represented on these forums. We are surely not a reflection of the BMW demograph as a whole. We can bitch about the lack of MT models all day (believe me, I will continue to do so) but if the sales aren't there, it ain't gonna happen. Cynical? Perhaps.

Totally relevant comment. ^^^^

Yes, a good discussion.

Again from the UK perspective, BMW have been highly criticised for ride quality, our roads are generally in a poor state and many just want softer rides. BMW listen and we get M-sport models which the enthusiast says is far too soft, but the 'volume users' are finding much more acceptable.

BMW still offer the performance upgrades, for those who want a bit more sportiness in stock models, M-cars for the hard core enthusiast, but off the peg has to appeal to the mass market.

Whatever we would like, the business model has to be one that works, I sense BMW know what they are doing, even if a few enthusiasts are left scratching heads.

HighlandPete

[joewalton]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

I agree with most of what has been posted so far. Great discussion.


And also just wish to reiterate that, sadly, MT owners and enthusiasts are a measly drop in the bucket when it comes to total sales numbers. We are grossly over represented on these forums. We are surely not a reflection of the BMW demograph as a whole. We can bitch about the lack of MT models all day (believe me, I will continue to do so) but if the sales aren't there, it ain't gonna happen. Cynical? Perhaps.

In the United States, there just aren't that many drivers who know how to use a manual transmission anymore. And those who are left, say, baby boomers born before 1950, are in their 70s and no longer can be bothered with it.