[Vocans]

Originally Posted by David70

I'm impressed with the amount off you got. If this is true throughout the price range and with the M3, then reality is there isn't as much price difference between the M2 (supposedly selling above MSRP) to the M3 as it looks on paper.

There certainly are deals to be had on M3's but it might require looking around at non-local dealers. Allocations still aren't fantastic for M3's so a lot of dealers aren't willing to haggle on them.

[Alfisti]

Too much focus on the high end here. Caddy's problem is they moved away from true luxury when it could have been the saviour they were looking for. After making crap for 25 years they went up market chasing "sport" buyers, massive fail.

They should have went full luxury, soft ride, lots of tech and comfort features. They'd have sold gazillions of them as Gen Xers start to age.

Instead their back seat room on all models is an absolute joke, no other word for it. So who buys the cars? I also think the styling is ageing and all model sneed a refresh quickly. Additionally, they have failed to add enough SUV and the SRX was a million years old before they replaced it.

Hell Nissan will offer you a Juke, a Rogue, a Murano or a Pathfinder. Win, win, win.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Too much focus on the high end here. Caddy's problem is they moved away from true luxury when it could have been the saviour they were looking for. After making crap for 25 years they went up market chasing "sport" buyers, massive fail.

They should have went full luxury, soft ride, lots of tech and comfort features. They'd have sold gazillions of them as Gen Xers start to age.

Instead their back seat room on all models is an absolute joke, no other word for it. So who buys the cars? I also think the styling is ageing and all model sneed a refresh quickly. Additionally, they have failed to add enough SUV and the SRX was a million years old before they replaced it.

Hell Nissan will offer you a Juke, a Rogue, a Murano or a Pathfinder. Win, win, win.

Except 15 years ago when Cadillac started on it's reformation, the chant was it was an "old man's car" (the chant that remains being echoed in the halls of E90 Post...) and couldn't compete dynamically with BMW and the Europeans. BMW goes Lexus (soft and luxurious with lots of tech) and the Roundel hounds, who wouldn't know a good handling car from a bad one, still come to the trough with low monthly lease payments and a fear of having the car past the 50,000 mile warranty and the idea they are driving the Ultimate Driving Machine.

It's a joke really. By all reports I've read, and the three instances I've driven an ATS and CTS (over a few thousand miles), Cadillac hands down beats BMW in handling. Despite what people here think of the interior, while different, is just as good as a BMW (for the art of driving) in the same price range, and build quality is on par between the two brands (go look at how well laid out and tidy the ATS's engine bay is). The magazines rags on CUE and say the 2.0L turbo is harsh. Meanwhile Motor Trend just raved on how smooth and powerful the 2.0L Turbo is in the new Camaro (it's the same motor and chassis as the ATS). So most of what I read here is magazine rehash about the ATS, and most haven't actually driven the car. Their excuse... "well the dealer is mean to me and sells Chevys" too . What the real issue is most Posters here want a blue & white faux propeller badge on the hood and a good computer interface rather than a great handling car (and apparently a hand-job at the point of sale). BMW and Lexus (if you can tolerate that God-awful grill) gives them that. Cadillac gives them a great driving car for a lower real retail price. Both BMW and Cadillac are selling off their prestige of the 1980's, neither which is deserved in 2016.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

I'm impressed with the amount off you got. If this is true throughout the price range and with the M3, then reality is there isn't as much price difference between the M2 (supposedly selling above MSRP) to the M3 as it looks on paper.

I wonder why you can get a discount on an M3...

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Except 15 years ago when Cadillac started on it's reformation, the chant was it was an "old man's car" (the chant that remains being echoed in the halls of E90 Post...) and couldn't compete dynamically with BMW and the Europeans. BMW goes Lexus (soft and luxurious with lots of tech) and the Roundel hounds, who wouldn't know a good handling car from a bad one, still come to the trough with low monthly lease payments and a fear of having the car past the 50,000 mile warranty and the idea they are driving the Ultimate Driving Machine.

It's a joke really. By all reports I've read, and the three instances I've driven an ATS and CTS (over a few thousand miles), Cadillac hands down beats BMW in handling. Despite what people here think of the interior, while different, is just as good as a BMW (for the art of driving) in the same price range, and build quality is on par between the two brands (go look at how well laid out and tidy the ATS's engine bay is). The magazines rags on CUE and say the 2.0L turbo is harsh. Meanwhile Motor Trend just raved on how smooth and powerful the 2.0L Turbo is in the new Camaro (it's the same motor and chassis as the ATS). So most of what I read here is magazine rehash about the ATS, and most haven't actually driven the car. Their excuse... "well the dealer is mean to me and sells Chevys" too . What the real issue is most Posters here want a blue & white faux propeller badge on the hood and a good computer interface rather than a great handling car (and apparently a hand-job at the point of sale). BMW and Lexus (if you can tolerate that God-awful grill) gives them that. Cadillac gives them a great driving car for a lower real retail price. Both BMW and Cadillac are selling off their prestige of the 1980's, neither which is deserved in 2016.

Handling at the limit is not necessarily the top / only priority for most customers as it appears to be for you. It's not like the M is incompetent at handling either. Personally, I have no issues with the Ms handling, so why would I shop for a car that some reviews say have better handling, but I perceive as inferior in other ways?

Interior is a matter of opinion and, at least on this forum, you are in the minority. Caddy interior is not on par IMO and, in my personal experience, CUE is a terrible concept. Who the hell wants a touch sensitive system when driving 80 MPH? It seems idiotic to me. Your arguments will likely be better received on a Caddy forum.

Saying everyone that buys a BMW or other brand over a Cadillac is doing it for the badge is a bit comical. That means nearly everyone values the badges above all else, since neither the CTS nor ATS are selling well despite being the superior purchase in your opinion. Consider for a moment that people have valid reasons for selecting other brands because if your theory is correct, Caddy has little hope no matter what they do with their cars. Everyone will always buy other cars from different brands.

[PappyVR4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

... What the real issue is most Posters here want a blue & white faux propeller badge on the hood and a good computer interface rather than a great handling car...

The rounded isn't actually a propellor from the days that BMW made aircraft engines. It's just a circular representation of the Bavarian state flag.

I lope that Cadillac pushes BMW back to where they should be when it comes to crisp feedback. But BMW does still have good handling. Yes, they are by default more soft, less steering feel, and lots of body roll. However, the handling (at least for the RWD 328i) is still wonderfully neutral with an ever slight tendency towards pivoting the back end around in easy oversteer. The only understeer I've encountered could easily be attributed to the stock tires in tight, parking lot type turns. Turn-in at speed is always as desired. This is all during spirited 80% driving on public roads, not full 100% driving on the track.

As for Caddilac, I would not consider a current one purely because of the interior. BMWs don't have any more luxury; the F30 is actually relatively utilitarian. But I need tactile buttons so I can keep my eyes on the road. And I can't stand all the flashy gloss trim and bright multicolor instruments. Interior may not be important to you, but I spend most of my time around the car... actually in it.

Obviously this is largely subjective and we both have our separate preferences. But the Caddilac having great handling doesn't mean BMW doesn't still have good handling. And preferring the functional and tactile interior of BMW doesn't mean people are badge seekers.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Except 15 years ago when Cadillac started on it's reformation, the chant was it was an "old man's car" (the chant that remains being echoed in the halls of E90 Post...) and couldn't compete dynamically with BMW and the Europeans. BMW goes Lexus (soft and luxurious with lots of tech) and the Roundel hounds, who wouldn't know a good handling car from a bad one, still come to the trough with low monthly lease payments and a fear of having the car past the 50,000 mile warranty and the idea they are driving the Ultimate Driving Machine.

It's a joke really. By all reports I've read, and the three instances I've driven an ATS and CTS (over a few thousand miles), Cadillac hands down beats BMW in handling. Despite what people here think of the interior, while different, is just as good as a BMW (for the art of driving) in the same price range, and build quality is on par between the two brands (go look at how well laid out and tidy the ATS's engine bay is). The magazines rags on CUE and say the 2.0L turbo is harsh. Meanwhile Motor Trend just raved on how smooth and powerful the 2.0L Turbo is in the new Camaro (it's the same motor and chassis as the ATS). So most of what I read here is magazine rehash about the ATS, and most haven't actually driven the car. Their excuse... "well the dealer is mean to me and sells Chevys" too . What the real issue is most Posters here want a blue & white faux propeller badge on the hood and a good computer interface rather than a great handling car (and apparently a hand-job at the point of sale). BMW and Lexus (if you can tolerate that God-awful grill) gives them that. Cadillac gives them a great driving car for a lower real retail price. Both BMW and Cadillac are selling off their prestige of the 1980's, neither which is deserved in 2016.

Agree completely. BMW makes their name on being the best handling car in the business (Ultimate Driving Machine) but Cadillac, 10 years ago, trying to figure out where to go should stay a soft, old man's car that currently isn't selling. Then looking at the leaders (BMW, Audi, MB) they decided on a direction, slowly have worked on performance, changing attitudes and for the first time, 3 years ago, came out with a true competitor to the 3 series. As a first true 3 series competitor, if the handling had been poor it would have been a huge mistake and also not seeing the market for a soft, poor handling small car, only option would have been to stay out.

They definitely didn't make a perfect car but considering BMW has been making great handling small coupe/sedans for almost 50 years I think pretty good.

Image is always the slowest thing to change and calling anything a failure 3-4 years in would also be a mistake.

[David70]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I asked back in post 82 but I didn't get response...

What standard equipment comes with the ATS-V but not the M?

Problem is as soon as I post anything the response will be "I didn't want that anyway". If I was spec'ing out both cars I would probably get a silver car with a black interior (I know, boring, but many years down the road I would still be happy with it).

Go to the configurators and select the car you would buy.

ATS-V sedan
Silver - no charge color
Backup camera standard
Magnetic Ride Standard
Bluetooth/USB standard
Get the Luxury Package - Includes Heads up display, Nav, HID's
ATS V price - $61,460

BMW
Select silver (only white no charge)
Select Executive Package to get back up camera and heads up(trying to make the specs equal)
Select Adaptive M suspension
Enhanced USB and Bluetooth plus Smartphone Integration
M 3 price - $69,895

Maybe I am missing something and the price is closer than I think.

This is part of reason I say the ATS V may not be as good but for what I see on the configurator it doesn't have to be for me to look at it.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by David70

Problem is as soon as I post anything the response will be "I didn't want that anyway". If I was spec'ing out both cars I would probably get a silver car with a black interior (I know, boring, but many years down the road I would still be happy with it).

Go to the configurators and select the car you would buy.

ATS-V sedan
Silver - no charge color
Backup camera standard
Magnetic Ride Standard
Bluetooth/USB standard
Get the Luxury Package - Includes Heads up display, Nav, HID's
ATS V price - $61,460

BMW
Select silver (only white no charge)
Select Executive Package to get back up camera and heads up(trying to make the specs equal)
Select Adaptive M suspension
Enhanced USB and Bluetooth plus Smartphone Integration
M 3 price - $69,895

Maybe I am missing something and the price is closer than I think.

This is part of reason I say the ATS V may not be as good but for what I see on the configurator it doesn't have to be for me to look at it.

I am pretty sure navigation, bluetooth and Xenon adaptive lights are standard on the M3. You also get a carbon fiber roof with free option to change it to a sunroof on an M3 vs. $1K for sunroof on ATS-V. Yes, the ATS-V has magnetic ride and backup camera that are not standard on the M3, but as far as standard equipment, I struggle with the notion that an ATS-V has more standard equipment than an M3. Different equipment, yes... but I think you could argue the M3 has equal or more standard equipment and the base MSRPs before adding options (and deducting discounts) are pretty close.

As for the cars you configured, you are indicating a difference of around $8,400. However, the ATS-V price you show includes a $2,500 cash back so this is not really comparing MSRP to MSRP. If you were to include discounts, wouldn't you need to figure out selling prices vs. comparing a price net of a discount in one to MSRP in the other? MSRP vs. MSRP is more like $6K. (Also, BMW enhanced bluetooth is an option over standard bluetooth, albeit an inexpensive one.)

As you configured them, the M3 would have HUD (which is not part of the ATS-V luxury package - it is in another package), a carbon fiber roof (with free sunroof option) and arguably better seats than the standard ATS-V seats(which offers a $2,000+ option to upgrade). It would also offer iDrive over CUE and have additional options (at a price, of course) not available to the ATS-V buyer at any price, such as full leather interior, 19" wheels, CCBs and side and top view cameras, if you care to have such things.

I really don't see where the ATS-V has "more" standard equipment. The M3 can definitely get more expensive when building out the car with options depending on what you want. However, on a comparable basis, I don't think it is enough of a difference to sway most buyers based on cost, if they don't like the ATS-V styling, CUE or rest of the interior - or want some options just not available from Caddy; even when considering the Caddy's handling abilities. So I disagree that the ATS-V beats the M significantly on price.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The minority with the better driving car. If one believes the "ultimate driving machine" motto then one would want the best driving car. If you can't deal with fingerprints (my plastic-capped light poplar E90 trim has the same issue) and that's the sole reason to take it off some list, then you are definitely hard to please.

I don't buy into the "ultimate driving machine" marketing stuff, but yes we all have different priorities.

I do like a fun to drive car, but I also have other priorities such as ride quality (adjustable suspension was a must since roads around here are terrible and my G35 Sport was brutal on city streets), easy to use infotainment system, torque down low for easy merging onto highways, especially GW Parkway (which has no acceleration lanes) and a simple interior so for me the F30 checked the most boxes. It was between that and the S4 for me.

The ATS didn't meet a lot of that criteria although it is, by all accounts, the better driving car. In fact as far as I know, most Cadillac cars drive better than the competition. In Sport mode, the F30 handles about as well as my G did, the EPS blows but it sucked just as bad in the S4. If I could justify having more than one car, my secondary car would have a heavy emphasis on pure driving experience.

[David70]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I am pretty sure navigation, bluetooth and Xenon adaptive lights are standard on the M3. You also get a carbon fiber roof with free option to change it to a sunroof on an M3 vs. $1K for sunroof on ATS-V. Yes, the ATS-V has magnetic ride and backup camera that are not standard on the M3, but as far as standard equipment, I struggle with the notion that an ATS-V has more standard equipment than an M3. Different equipment, yes... but I think you could argue the M3 has equal or more standard equipment and the base MSRPs before adding options (and deducting discounts) are pretty close.

As for the cars you configured, you are indicating a difference of around $8,400. However, the ATS-V price you show includes a $2,500 cash back so this is not really comparing MSRP to MSRP. If you were to include discounts, wouldn't you need to figure out selling prices vs. comparing a price net of a discount in one to MSRP in the other? MSRP vs. MSRP is more like $6K. (Also, BMW enhanced bluetooth is an option over standard bluetooth, albeit an inexpensive one.)

As you configured them, the M3 would have HUD (which is not part of the ATS-V luxury package - it is in another package), a carbon fiber roof (with free sunroof option) and arguably better seats than the standard ATS-V seats(which offers a $2,000+ option to upgrade). It would also offer iDrive over CUE and have additional options (at a price, of course) not available to the ATS-V buyer at any price, such as full leather interior, 19" wheels, CCBs and side and top view cameras, if you care to have such things.

I really don't see where the ATS-V has "more" standard equipment. The M3 can definitely get more expensive when building out the car with options depending on what you want. However, on a comparable basis, I don't think it is enough of a difference to sway most buyers based on cost, if they don't like the ATS-V styling, CUE or rest of the interior - or want some options just not available from Caddy; even when considering the Caddy's handling abilities. So I disagree that the ATS-V beats the M significantly on price.

You are right, it was a mistake to look this up and post it. Reality is MSRP is pointless and until you actually go and see what you get for your money you don't know anything. When I see that they the manufacturer is offering $2500 right on the Configurator it is part of the MSRP (by definition it is part of the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price).

I am extremely confident that you could walk out the door with an ATS V that is substantially cheaper than the M, performance that is similar (possibly some things that are better some things that are worse), and for me it would be worth looking. This is exactly how I ended up with my ATS.

I would not buy either new as I prefer a more sensible daily driver that I drive a lot and kill the value and another weekend car that is losing almost no value and I find far more unique and interesting but not very practical.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by PappyVR4

The rounded isn't actually a propellor from the days that BMW made aircraft engines. It's just a circular representation of the Bavarian state flag. - hence the reason I said fake...

I lope that Cadillac pushes BMW back to where they should be when it comes to crisp feedback. But BMW does still have good handling. Yes, they are by default more soft, less steering feel, and lots of body roll. However, the handling (at least for the RWD 328i) is still wonderfully neutral with an ever slight tendency towards pivoting the back end around in easy oversteer. The only understeer I've encountered could easily be attributed to the stock tires in tight, parking lot type turns. Turn-in at speed is always as desired. This is all during spirited 80% driving on public roads, not full 100% driving on the track.

As for Caddilac, I would not consider a current one purely because of the interior. BMWs don't have any more luxury; the F30 is actually relatively utilitarian. But I need tactile buttons so I can keep my eyes on the road. And I can't stand all the flashy gloss trim and bright multicolor instruments. Interior may not be important to you, but I spend most of my time around the car... actually in it.

Obviously this is largely subjective and we both have our separate preferences. But the Caddilac having great handling doesn't mean BMW doesn't still have good handling. And preferring the functional and tactile interior of BMW doesn't mean people are badge seekers.

BMW interiors as compared to the '80s BMWs are far less tactile and iDrive is just as distracting as CUE is regardless of the tactile interface; you still have to look at it. Funny I find are the discussions of many BMW owners here who claim to have put $1,000 down for a Tesla 3 reservation agreement and the car doesn't have any buttons nor gauges.... Most of the CUE system is voice controlled as well as haptic buttons on a screen. And you can get an ATS without CUE if you really care about an actual driver's car vs. rolling computer.

[PappyVR4]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

BMW interiors as compared to the '80s BMWs are far less tactile and iDrive is just as distracting as CUE is regardless of the tactile interface; you still have to look at it. Funny I find are the discussions of many BMW owners here who claim to have put $1,000 down for a Tesla 3 reservation agreement and the car doesn't have any buttons nor gauges.... Most of the CUE system is voice controlled as well as haptic buttons on a screen. And you can get an ATS without CUE if you really care about an actual driver's car vs. rolling computer.

Of course they don't have the haptic feedback of a BMW from the 80s, or even 90s. That's technology for you. But I can still compare like generation models of different brands.

I disagree that iDrive is just as distracting. With easily identifiable buttons, I can change between telephone, nav, radio, and media. I can do that without taking my eyes off the road for even a split second. And the iDrive controls allow me to keep my hand close to my shifter. That isn't to say that iDrive is really all that good. It leaves much to be desired.

Regarding the Tesla, I can't stand that the Tesla 3 won't have any buttons or gauges. That removes it from my list of possible cars. Even the Model S' massive touch screen is off-putting enough.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

BMW interiors as compared to the '80s BMWs are far less tactile and iDrive is just as distracting as CUE is regardless of the tactile interface; you still have to look at it. Funny I find are the discussions of many BMW owners here who claim to have put $1,000 down for a Tesla 3 reservation agreement and the car doesn't have any buttons nor gauges.... Most of the CUE system is voice controlled as well as haptic buttons on a screen. And you can get an ATS without CUE if you really care about an actual driver's car vs. rolling computer.

Why do I get the impression that you think that your preferences are somehow superior and condescend other peoples' preferences?

Infotainment systems in the car are a big deal to me, since I have to use it to do pretty much anything related to being comfortable inside the car. It's also important because a poorly designed one (like the original iDrive, large reason why I went with the G35 instead of the E90 years ago) can be dangerous as it can be distracting.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by PappyVR4

I disagree that iDrive is just as distracting.

Because it isn't even close to comparable. CUE is in another league entirely in terms of distraction. I hate touch screens and touch sensitive controls.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Because it isn't even close to comparable. CUE is in another league entirely in terms of distraction. I hate touch screens and touch sensitive controls.

I got grubby hands and salty fingers. Fucking hate touchscreen.

[David70]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Why do I get the impression that you think that your preferences are somehow superior and condescend other peoples' preferences?

Infotainment systems in the car are a big deal to me, since I have to use it to do pretty much anything related to being comfortable inside the car. It's also important because a poorly designed one (like the original iDrive, large reason why I went with the G35 instead of the E90 years ago) can be dangerous as it can be distracting.

I don't know what he thinks but I strongly believe my preferences are superior.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

iDrive is just as distracting as CUE is regardless of the tactile interface; you still have to look at it.

This is objectively false.

1. iDrive is higher up on the dash and further away from the driver than CUE. Therefore the drivers eyes don't have to move as far from the road, and you also don't have to shift your focus as significantly from near to far. Shifting visual focus from takes more time as you age, and a few inches of difference on the near end makes a big difference.

2. Any touch screen requires you to look at it for a longer period of time, because not only do you have to read it, but you have to specifically aim and move your hand for every button push. I have to lift my whole arm up to operate Cue, whereas iDrive barely requires moving my fingers. Touchscreens are an inferior solution in a car compared to a well designed rotary controller.

That said, I really like the ATS-V, and the latest iteration of CUE would not stop me from buying a Cadillac. I would miss my M3's iDrive though.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Racer20

This is objectively false.

1. iDrive is higher up on the dash and further away from the driver than CUE. Therefore the drivers eyes don't have to move as far from the road, and you also don't have to shift your focus as significantly from near to far. Shifting visual focus from takes more time as you age, and a few inches of difference on the near end makes a big difference.

2. Any touch screen requires you to look at it for a longer period of time, because not only do you have to read it, but you have to specifically aim and move your hand for every button push. I have to lift my whole arm up to operate Cue, whereas iDrive barely requires moving my fingers. Touchscreens are an inferior solution in a car compared to a well designed rotary controller.

That said, I really like the ATS-V, and the latest iteration of CUE would not stop me from buying a Cadillac. I would miss my M3's iDrive though.

I agree regarding the ergonomics. I was referring to the act of using a GUI to control some of the car's functions. I've used both the CUE and iDrive, and I found both to be distracting as far as focusing on the act of actually driving. I've read on the Cadillac Forums that once the owner gets used CUE they find the system easy to use. The 1st gen Idrive was a POS to use as well. The minute Cadillac goes to a rotary CUE control, the Fanboys here will be screaming "Copy Copy Copy - Cadillac can't be original".

I have an '06 E90 and a '08 Z4. Neither have NAV or iDrive on purpose.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by PappyVR4

Of course they don't have the haptic feedback of a BMW from the 80s, or even 90s. That's technology for you. But I can still compare like generation models of different brands.

I disagree that iDrive is just as distracting. With easily identifiable buttons, I can change between telephone, nav, radio, and media. I can do that without taking my eyes off the road for even a split second. And the iDrive controls allow me to keep my hand close to my shifter. That isn't to say that iDrive is really all that good. It leaves much to be desired.

Regarding the Tesla, I can't stand that the Tesla 3 won't have any buttons or gauges. That removes it from my list of possible cars. Even the Model S' massive touch screen is off-putting enough.

You can change between Nav, phone and media in CUE using voice command and/or steering wheel controls. I owned an E30 for 18 years. That car had the best-placed controls of any car I've ever driven. The HVAC didn't even need to be looked at to use. The radio was simple. Lights.. pull a knob. Yeah I get it, there is more tech in cars now adays than the E30. Most of it I don't need and most of it is over done - does one really need the capacilty of 30 stations preprogrammed. A lot of the iDrive (and CUE) control is redundant therefore useless. It's preference. BMW had the best cruise control up until the F30. The BMW stalk cruise control never needs any eyes off the road to use. Now it's a group of small buttons on the steering wheel.

[Mywifes335]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You can change between Nav, phone and media in CUE using voice command and/or steering wheel controls. I owned an E30 for 18 years. That car had the best-placed controls of any car I've ever driven. The HVAC didn't even need to be looked at to use. The radio was simple. Lights.. pull a knob. Yeah I get it, there is more tech in cars now adays than the E30. Most of it I don't need and most of it is over done - does one really need the capacilty of 30 stations preprogrammed. A lot of the iDrive (and CUE) control is redundant therefore useless. It's preference. BMW had the best cruise control up until the F30. The BMW stalk cruise control never needs any eyes off the road to use. Now it's a group of small buttons on the steering wheel.

Did your E30 have the full trip computer with the overhead display?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Mywifes335

Did your E30 have the full trip computer with the overhead display?

No.